Mr. Frost,
In response to your paragraph on "in God we trust", check out this blog here on the times news...
http://www.timesnews.net/blogger.php?id=10239&postid=7359

Johnny Frost,

Great post and well said...I don't think most christians in this area have a clue as to what Religious Freedom actually means. It's like they think it means Freedom to be a Christian without interference from anything else that is different.

Anyway. Nice.

Hal,

We are not a Christian Nation! While it may be true that majority of this great country are Christian, to say that we are a Christian Nation goes against everything our founding fathers stood for. A simple history lesson should tell you that those who fled Europe to colonize the new world, did so for and I stress RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! They were tired of their nation states forcing a religion on them. So they packed up, set sail and ventured to a new land where they could practice whatever religion they wanted however they wanted.

To be so egotistical and self righteous to proclaim that we are a Christian Nation just seems down right anti-American. We are a cultural melting pot which brings with it new ideas, religions and so on.

It never ceases to amaze me how many so called Christians act out in such hypocritical ways that seem so out of place in their chosen faith. The same can be said with most religions, but it's especially true in this area. There are so many 'Christians' who act so unchristian like that it defies all sense of logic. If you want to see what I am talking about, all you have to do is test the good old fashion Christian tolerance by telling your friends and family that you are switching religions to Buddhist, Catholicism, Hinduism, Judaism or if you really really want to test it out and you have the balls big enough to do so, tell them that you are now an atheist. You will find out REAL QUICK that Christian Tolerance is a MYTH in this area. While there may be a small few who will accept your change of beliefs, there will be a large group who will treat you completely different.

The whole IN GOD WE TRUST thing bothers the hell out of me. This was not part of our Pledge of Allegiance, it was not on our money until the fear of communism arose in the late 40s and early 50s and what better way to weed out those godless commie bastards than to slap God every where we can. If the original pledge was written by a baptist minister and he saw no need to include God in the original version, then it just seems so wrong and un-American to rewrite the pledge just to add God to it for the sole sake of a POLITICAL opinion. That's the real truth of the matter. The Knights of Columbus used FEAR OF COMMUNISM to spread a religious and political agenda and the government went right along with it.

A person does not need God, religion or the Bible to be a GOOD and MORAL person. To sit here and to basically insinuate that everything that is going wrong with this country is because of the lack of religion is ridiculous. There are many things wrong in this country and isn't because of religion or lack-there-of. I know plenty of people who are not Christan are very moral and decent people. I know many Christians who are drug addicts, who have been in jail for not paying child support, or for other things like robbery and whatnot. So just because someone reads from the same good book as you, goes to the same church as you, does not make them a better person than someone who does differently.

Kajen,

So what about other religous literature? It's as bad as anything else if the religion it's self try's to say that their literature is the word of god and is inerrant, if the followers try to formulate laws that strictly follow some kind of interpretation of that literature...it's no better or worse than what many christians try to do.

If these other religions have some kind of actual proof that their texts are more truthful than christanity then I'll look at it with the same regard as I do the bible.

As for the catholic church and their compilation of the bible...While it's true that early christians probably had letters and documents for years that were copied and passed around, there's no way to tell what the early christians were really reading. The catholics are the ones that chose what letters and books to publish. For all we know, the early christians were reading more of the lost sea scrolls than the books that were chosen the in the bible. And many of those scrolls that were found are in direct opposition to many of the books that make up the bible today.

Besides, I have yet to see in person , or a picture of the original hand written letters that make up the new testiment. Do they even exist? Or is it just copies of copies translated by the priests and monks of the time?

Again, I don't trust for one minute the religious institution of the Roman Catholics, especially during the dark ages, who killed and destroyed every thing in their path if they didn't convert to chrstianity - to believe that they had the best intentions of the almighty god in mind when they translated, compiled and set the bible in order.

It's kind of like putting Hitler in charge of gods word...not a likely scenario of the most holy high god of all creation to leave his precious word in the hands of the swine....."cast not your pearls before swine..."

I read every post under this topic and came to this conclusion. Eric Taylor has 3 words in his vocabulary. Kid, intelligence, ignorant...I have viewed his post from other topics and found his post to say the same things over and over and over. I agree with Kajen with the following.
Mr. Taylor.

"Quit insulting everyone's intelligence with your childish games.

If you would like, you can ask more but please just two or three at a time. Or we can elaborate a bit more on what I've already posted. Choice is yours.

Remember, I've figured out your game. I know what's coming next."
Ok KID

Let me rephrase that. Early Christians didn’t have available to them the Bible as we have it today. They had scripture for sure but most from the OT. I wasn’t compiled and canonized for a long while as Christian Scripture.

So still being believers and followers of the way, they had their faith established in Jesus.

Question: You all hit the Bible pretty hard. What about the other religious literature that claims to be divinely inspired The Muslims, the Mormons to name a few that are local.

Most first and second and third century Christians didn’t have the Bible as we have it today yet they were Christians. Because of their faith.

We can thank people like Martin Luther for bringing it to the people and out of the hands of the Romanists.

Kajen,

Are you saying that if the bible had never been written that you would have still found out about Jesus Christ and all the rules and regularions of being a christian?

You are christians because you heard of christ and believed his message, which ONLY came from the bible. So how could you be a christian had the bible never been written?

You mostly likely would be out worshiping tree roots or fish. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but to clarify your clarification, Christianity wouldn't exist today without the bible. I guess we can thank the Roman Catholic Church for translating it flawlessly, while killing, burning and destroying every one in their path to bring the love of christ to the masses.

"As for christians, in general, now that I'm not one and can look at it more subjectively, the only information they have about god is through the bible. If the bible hadn't been written, then people of this day would be searching for some kind of representation of god and would some how, some way try and find a way to figure out their own reasons for being here on this big blue ball."

I think this is a misrepresentation of who we are. We are not Christians because of the Bible. We are Christians because we have had our faith establish in Jesus Christ and we are conformed to Him and have had our sins imputed to him and His righteousness imputed to us.

I think there is a big difference there.

The Bible doesn’t make us Christians and our faith doesn’t make us Christians. What makes us Christians is where we place that faith.

Just thought that should be explained.

I just wish Ronnie and all these other foam at the mouth Bible bangers would SHUT UP! I'm not Christian. I won't be forced to become a Christian. I find their entire made up fantasy world absolutely disgusting. They worship the god of war, death, and destruction of nomadic barbarians from thousands of years ago.

Scarlett,

Thanks for the post and I do appreciate your remarks.

I guess my response is that it depends on what your version of God is. I do believe in a higher power, though I don't know and can't explain what that is. There are many different opinions, as there are with christians and their religion, as to what and who God is and what he requires to be in harmony with Him/Her/It.

As for christians, in general, now that I'm not one and can look at it more subjectively, the only information they have about god is through the bible. If the bible hadn't been written, then people of this day would be searching for some kind of representation of god and would some how, some way try and find a way to figure out their own reasons for being here on this big blue ball.

Thus, the bible is the all important guide as to what christians should think feel and believe about their creator.

I do believe that if you are a christian you should either believe and follow 100% the word of god or not at all. To believe anything less makes a person having his own mini religion...his own little 'denomination'. From what I can see and read, there is definitely some issues that Jehovah has with people being gay. I don't think that the bible allows for a person who is gay to actually "be" who he is without the penalty of going to hell. For gay people to be true to themselves, it means that they would constantly be living in sin. And by comparison, if a liar continues to lie, a murder continues to murder and on and on, then they are not turning from their sins...though I think many christians commit their 'lesser' sins and just ask for forgiveness every day, or when they think about it while others with more serious issues cannot do the same thing and be accepted in church.

My point is the whole concept of what is sin and what isn't....what god will allow and what he wont is so vague and has so many gray areas that it makes it nearly impossible for people that believe his word to agree. And I think that whoever god is, if all he wanted to leave us is a book to go by, would have done a much better job of letting us know exactly what he meant when he said it. Sorry, just can't see it any other way.

So, can I live a godly life? I think so. Can I strive to better myself and the lives of those around me, be charitable, loving and patient and all that? Yes I can. I believe I can be all those things without believing that I have to filter everything through the bible...again, it's not big enough, not well written enough and not accurate enough for me to change my whole life and way of living to conform to it's rules and regulations. I believe I can live a godly life, but the question is what my version of godly is. Since I've left christianity I've been doing just that, trying to find what my version of godliness is. All christians seem to do the same thing, except they just interpret the bible to suit their own comfort zone.

History proves over and over again that ignorance combined with faith in their ignorance can be a deadly combination...remember the inquisition? Killing in the name of the lord. That's just one glaring example, there are alot more that are more subtle but equally as frustrating to people that are tryiing to sort out what to really believe and what not to.

It will be totally interesting in another 20 years to see what christianity deems as acceptable human behavior and what is not. It has been constantly changing every since the catholic church set down with all their big wigs and decided what books to put in the bible and which ones to either burn, bury or discard. That in its self is a big fat red flag.

I'm sure at times it's difficult for you and others to take up for the word of god, as in trying to explain, as you did with me, that certain sins will not keep you out of heaven.

I believe that being gay is not in the least sinful. That right there is enough of a rejection of gods word to keep me out of his heaven, according to his own words...." he that adds one word to or takes one word away will have his name taken out of the book of life...." or something to that effect.

So, christians have a razors edge to walk on. Many would say that You are taking away from the book..not just one word but whole pages. Others add to it, and still it's the same penality according to the bible.

If our soul, our very life, comes from the great creator, then we all are a part of the same god. And if we have that afinity with him, then I'm quite sure that I can look deep within myself, without the help of a book that is so questionable and impossible to understand it's EXACT meaning.

I think it's quite possible that when it's all said and done, that humanity will find that those looking for enlightenment, and a relationship with the One who gave them life, will realize that we were all trying our best to find the same thing.

It's certainly not humanities fault that there is so many questions and disagreements about who god is. It is god that set forth the tools that mankind has to try and figure things out, regardless of what religion you follow or don't follow.

And I just can't see any religion that has the absolute truth. And I'm sure god knows that.

Again. He could figure out a way to stop all of this religious nonsense all of the world, but he doesn't. So, that leads me to believe that what we are all clammering over here on earth really isn't that important to him.

Well, that was lengthy and probably redundant, but I aint gonna go back and edit it:)

You obviously have a question about homosexuality and if it's chosen or genetic. Maybe sometime when you have a chance you can research the medical side of the debate, with an open mind, and actually see all the evidence thus far compiled and see for yourself if it could be genetic. I know that it is for myself, but then I'm biased to it. But I have the mental scars and life experiences to know that it is without all the science to back it up.

Is everyone that indulges in homosexual behavior genetically gay? Well, that's a different question. I do believe that some people can make the choice to do certain actions....but being gay is MUCH more than just a sexual act, it goes to the heart of the person....it's like a soul thing.

Anyway, enough for now. sorry this is so long.

"there is absolutely no way in hell that I would make it to heaven and be gay. Which is why YOUR god isn't big enough for me."

You know, I can't be a christian and say that I belive homosexuality is not a sin, but at the same time I can't be a christian and say that God isn't big enough to love you and have a relationship with you. People who have been divorced or people who are alcoholics or people that like to gossip can still have a relationship with God, they can still go to heaven, so why can't you? Also, I don't know what "causes" a person to be gay, whether they are born that way or whether it's a choice because I'm not gay so It's hard for me to understand, but if it is as you say and you are born that way, why would God punish you for something you can't control? And before the other christians here begin to criticize me, I'm not condoning homosexuality, I'm just trying to discuss God in a way that doesn't offend people or push people away.

Mr. Starnes, your post reminds me of words spoken by most wife beaters. They apologize for beating up, belittling, etc. their wife, and then promise not to do it again as long as the wife doesn't do anything that HE thinks is deserving of such ill treatment.

Your interpretation of scripture is NOT the word of God. Quoting scriptures to people is one thing; giving YOUR interpretation of the scripture is a whole other "ball" game.

Ronnie Starnes,

I had the most amazing experience while I was reading your post. It was like...biting into a beautiful, red, juicy apple only to find out it had worms. yuck.

For the first time I thought I was reading a post that actually had some substance to it and made a little sense...you know, " ...just pointing the way and letting the Holy Spirit do the rest...." A nice touch for you Mr. Starnes.

But no. You just couldn't bow out gracefully. You had to bull doze your 'last word in' and try to end the subject with "...This is a very serious conversation and enough has been said on the topic. None of us can say we didn't know...."

Obviously enough HASN'T been said and I certainly am not going to give you the last word....Eric, if you or the others want to put any icing on the cake be my guest.

Mr. Starnes,

In response to your last post...the last paragraph...

1. Of course I know that according to the bible god won't turn his back on me, as long as I turn away from that sinful nature that he allowed me to be born into, without a choice.

2. I'm NOT a practising homosexual....get it straight! I'm a living one, born that way and can't do anything about it. (thank god I figured that out) It would be like trying to get "healed" from being left handed when most of the world is right handed.

3. I do not have a premise that I could be a homosexual and have a relationship with god. I TOTALLY understand that according to his sacred word that there is absolutely no way in hell that I would make it to heaven and be gay. Which is why YOUR god isn't big enough for me. I got tired of asking him to change me. It would be like praying to change your brown eye's into blue, cause jesus had blue eyes...

4. Being gay is no worse a sin than being a murderer or thief.....THIS is one of the most sickening and irritating statement that christians make, as if it's supposed to make us feel like we're no WORSE than these other type of sinners.....

Well, why don't you for once word it like thus..."You can't have a relationship with god as a homosexual..no more than a divorced man, a women who cuts her hair or doesn't cover it or one that gossips..." If our sin is always among the ranks of the worst sins, then tell me this: Who would you rather at your home protecting your family while you were away???
a. A murderer? He might kill all the one you love.
b. A theif? He might rob you blind and hire the murderer to kill your family.
c. A homosexual. He would probably redecorate your house, redo your lanscaping, take your wife out to have her nails done and read your kids a bedtime story.

5. Yes, I know that you have to repent of your sins and turn from your evil ways. But having blue eye's and being gay is not what I consider a sin. I tried turning from this 'evil way' but couldn't do it on my own and god didn't lift a finger to help.

6. It's hard to have a relationship with God even when you do believe in him. I 100% believed his word and suffered alot of persecution for it over the years...I STOPPED believing in his word when I finally saw the light.

7. The word of god??? Well, you never answered me on who wrote the book of John and the famous verse "In the beginning was the word...." It's written like it's the word of John, but it wasn't John that wrote it seeing as it was penned decades after the time of Jesus.

8. Reading the word is having a conversation with god almighty....hmmmm. I love this particular conversation I had with him:

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

To bad those poor guys won't know until it's too late that Jesus is gonna throw them into hell. The least that Jesus could do is tell them that BEFORE they get to the judgement throne.

I'd rather not talk to god if that's the way he is to unsuspecting souls. According to the scripture these poor people had no clue that Jesus would deny them when they needed him the most. I guess they didn't realize that they weren't in god's predestinated plan from the start. They could have at least been able to live a life of sin and pleasure and then go to hell, instead of wasting their time promoting HIS word with no thanks in return.

Nope. Don't like the sound of this god anymore. Thank God.

And last. "None of us can say we didn't know...."

Your last parting words that cut like a finely sharpened sword, and places fear and trembling in my heart because I might be dooming myself to hell. Yeah right. Well, if I end up there I'll be asking those guys that cast out the devils and did miracles in jesus name if they ever thought that maybe god was the bad guy.....

At first, a respectable attempt by Mr. Starnes to bow away from the conversation in a "Christ-like" manner. Though woe, he cannot finish the attempt without salivating over the generic, civil interjection by Ms. O'Hara.

You wish for the entire human race to fall under your god's spell, as do I wish you should overcome your fears, and succumb to the beautiful evolution of the human mind, and rid your senses and your precious life of the chains and bondage of man-made religions in their entirety.

Mr. B, just for the record, the scripture I quoted said nothing about hatred. It said to have anger toward, insult, or call a brother a fool. It also said nothing about being allowed to disobey this as long as you have good intentions.

I do commend you for apologizing to Mr. Walker. That simple gesture makes me feel much better about you. I wish everyone could show more love, understanding, and consideration for each other. Ms. Ohara's post is a good example to follow.

Kevin, you can still have a relationship with God even as a homosexual. He's not going to turn his back on you for that reason. Just wanted you to know....

Kajen, thanks :) But no apologies necessary. I realize that these forums are here for the exact purpose that we are using them for...the exchange of ideas and bantering back and forth.

It gives the newpaper some traffic to their publication, gives people a chance to voice their opinions and you can be as anonymous as you like and basically say whatever you want within the guidelines set forth.

Though I disagree with you and Ronnie, since i don't know you personally I don't suffer any ill feelings based on what we discuss here. Although I am amazed at the thought processes of many people that post here. We really don't know each other from Adam. If you were a close friend, then yeah, it might sting a little.

But again, thanks. appreciate that. Have a nice day.

Kevin Walker,

My apologies if I’ve offended you.

Lana Kennedy,

I stated or shown hatred for nobody. Discontent maybe. Sadness maybe. But not hatred. If I think anyone is a fool and call them out, it is with the best intentions.

Luke 12:20, 21: 20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' 21 So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God."

1Corinthians 3:18, 19: 18Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"

2Corinthians 12:10: For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Mr Taylor, you’ve dodged many, go back and look.

Mr. Starnes, Maybe not wasting my breath. All we can do is plant seeds brother. God will make grow what He determines.

1Corinthians 3:7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

Galatians 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Ronnie,

My life experiences:

I'm 45 and the father of 3 beautiful daughters..twins finishing college and a 19 year old in college. I was married for 18 years to a wonderful woman who agreed when I was 22 that regardless of my gay issues that I had struggled with that she wanted to marry me. I loved her and thought it was the right thing to do. Obviously god didn't change me and we divoced about 6 years ago. I own and manage and built 90 rental properties here in JC.

My Dad is a penticostal preacher and I grew up in a strict fundamental church and lived most dedicated life I could until 38 when my family and I both left church as they found out I was losing the battle with being homosexual.

I was the church pianist for 12 years. Wrote, sang and recorded gospel CD's and sold them to the people in our 'church circle' Before rental property I was partner in a company that sold equipment used in the computer chip industry and have been to England, Switzerland, Austria, Taiwan, Israel, and Scotland.

I live in a 200 year old stone house, drive a 2007 King Ranch with 30,000 miles on it, with leather seats. I have a 31 waist, a little grey hair popping up, a scar on my right arm and a wart right below my belly button that I would love to have taken off sometime before I die.

Finally, at 45 I'm at peace with myself and the world around me, for the most part, love life and the challenge of actually reading, studying and having an open mind to ALL the possible reasons why we are here on this earth, where we came from and where we're going. As of yet I don't have any concrete answers, but then it's more fun contemplating all the possible explanations rather than zipping myself up in a religious body bag and living a dead life.

So, that's a brief sum of my life experiences to date.

Oh, and never mind about the suicidal thoughts during most of my christian life because I never could " give myself over to god enough" to out run this homosexual gene I was born with. Thank the powers that be that I found a way out...by loving who I am and realizing that I don't have to be religious to be a good person. gosh, I could just go on and on...but then I'm sure you are bored with it all by now.

Ronnie,

Wow. I asked for your best shot and this is what I get?? I'm disappointed.

1. So what's the deal with four letter words? It's a part of the english language and usually spoken to stress a point or emotion. You gonna say that 4 letter words are sinful now too? Scripture please......

2. I discount any source of info but what I choose?....Just following your lead brother...(pot calling the kettle black?)

3. I have read the book of Nostrodamus, though a long time ago. I've also watched alot of clips on Youtube and documentaries about him and Edgar Cayce.

4. My FAVORITE one...."Most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Bible prophecy are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Bibles prophecies specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance...." thanks for opening that door Ronnie. See how it works out just the same?

5. God's word was around before it was written....Ok, I'll buy that...as in, just because it wasn't written down in the bible doesn't mean that he didn't speak it earlier, right?....Well, you failed again to answer me who wrote the book of John that you so love to quote, " In the beginning was the word..." Who wrote that??? And why should I believe that he knows what he's talking about....since it wasn't written until 50-90 years after Jesus died? It certainly wasn't John.

6. Obviously you have NO gift of discernment at all, and what a joke to put yourself in the same position as Edgar Casey. Though I absolutely don't have to, I will tell you my lifes experiences simply becauase I don't have anything to hide and to show you how judgemental of off the mark you really are....On the next post.

7. Lost Ball? What the heck is this supposed to analogize? I'm a lost....ball? Basket ball, football, tennis ball, golf ball???? Goof ball, blue ball, 'havin a ball', take the ball and run???.....

8. See 1-7 format....this is what I consider a decent way to respond to someone elses posts...care to follow suit?

Eric, great post and well said. And to further the point, if you look back 50 years or so, or sooner, most christian denominations held a pretty tight leash as far as the moral code that Christians were supposed to be kept on. But over the years as society changes, the churches have had to let the bars down, so to speak, to keep the younger crowd interested, build bigger churches with basket ball courts and sports events and anything else they can cook up to keep the people coming and paying their tithes. A 100 years ago you couldn't even see a womans ankle without it being scandalous and ya hardly ever saw a woman in a pair of pants, expecially at church. Now a days you can see 5 inches of cleavage, toes legs and thighs and it's no big deal, while they sit in church wearing their shorts, sandals and tank tops....but it's ok now.

Yeah, I agree that the church is loosing it's flame and will be flickering for who know's how much longer. Maybe in another 20 years christians will actually see that the things we are fussing about now are actually not that big of a deal....concerning what is sinful etc...The worldliness of the church sure has come a long way, but damn, got so far to go too!

I thought Kajen was wacked out on his posts, but this Ronnie fellow has got him beat by a long shot. Obviously he doesn't even know how to debate a subject which makes it even more frustrating. But I find it interesting to see how his mind works...to see that never ending loop of circular logic spin round and round like a water meter on crack. lol.

Yeah, what he said.

Kevin, I honestly think these two don't fully believe what it is they preach. Their very selective ways of responding in such vague manners, seemingly making up random "truths" to help convince themselves that they are correct.

Through my "de-indoctrination", I was confused, resentful, and angry that over half of my life up to this point was based on nothing but hearsay, simply because its what my mother was taught to do when SHE was growing up. Ive come to realize, through much research and reflection, that humans are still evolving, as is religion's grip on our species declining. The different religions can always be counted on to burn one another 's mosques, cathedrals, and walls in the name of what they proclaim as "truth", and we must let time run its course. We have not, at this point, heard another prophet, read another gods' commands, nor have any new religions of "Truth" gripped mankind as the chains of Islam and Christianity have done in the last two thousand years. The party of ignorance and nonsense, of irrationality and circular logic is dying, but the flame will continue to flicker for many years.

They have no evidence, they will create prophecy to see it fulfilled, and they have destroyed entire civilizations to "prove" they are working under the guise of their god. The primitive humans and their religi-gods are fizzling out, and the most ironic and, to me personally, humorous part of it all, is the fact that the evolution of our species will be the death of religion itself. That is, if the remaining sheep of one of the religions doesn't destroy humanity in his or her quest to fulfill yet another "prophecy."

Ronnie,

You really are a work of art. I'm sure the history channel did more investigation than you have on nostradamus, since they were broadcasting it on national television. Sorry, but I'll take their word for it over yours any day of the week.

Nostradamus never predicted anything???? well damn, then I wonder why he is so famous for his prophetic insight. Maybe you should read a little further outside the reach of your bible. That remark doesn't even deserve a response.

Next....the prophecy of the bible is older than its self?????? ????? what the f*** is that supposed to mean? The book of John says that, but then John wasn't the one that wrote that book to begin with and you are using it as some kind of answer to this? So what if this "john" person says all that? You werent around back then so you don't know who in the heck wrote that.

So, what writings have been found that are older than the Sumerians?

And, what in the heck does age have to do with me knowing enough to understand the truth? What specific truth are you talking about?

Name one thing that the bible specifically has said that has come to pass? Specifically that is....something that doesnt' need interpretation to understand?

If I didn't know any better I would say that you and Kajen are the same person, because you both have the same style of posting that says alot of fluff but doesnt' have much substance.

And since you mentioned Casey, which is Edgar Cacye, not William, it's quite well known that he would go into a trance and be able to tell people what was wrong with them and give them the cure all at the same time..Why do you think that he is even famous to some degree unless his prophecies were at least some what accurate...as accurate as the bible's is?

What I do realize is that if you can't respond to a post with something that actually has some substance and proof to it, then don't bother to post at all. You and Kajen both appear to be nothing more than parrots that just read other peoples work and then take it as your own convictions. At least do some homework before you post so that you dont' look like lazy, uneducated religous zealots that can't think for themselves.

Ronnie, I've noticed most all of your posts in the past and it's obvious that you don't have a leg to stand on unless it comes from the bible, which we all know is something way less than the inerrant word of god and the only way to have eternal life or whatever you want to drone on about it......

Let's make this simple...at least answer in some kind of detail what writings have been found that are older than the Sumarians. Please let us know who formulated this opinion and some specifics about it....as I fully believe that you yourself have not been out digging around in the ground to try and figure it out for yourself, so obvisouly you are taking someone elses word for it...just as I am.

So, go ahead. i'm dying to hear what kind of response your can drudge up.

But then again, don't bother if you really aren't up to it. Doesn't god have any proof of your interpretations that aren't written in that little black book? Is god soooooo small that he can't be revealed outside of something that was written 2000 years ago?

Give us your best shot Ronnie. I'm ready to believe if you can just prove it to me.

Ronnie,

The point of my response to you was that you gave 3 examples from the bible that prove it is correct and inerrant down to the period... My point is that so have other writings, with much more clarity and are much more precise...in fact, dead on. Thus, the Sumarian writings.

It doesn't matter to me what they believed. You gave 3 examples, and rather vague ones at that, as to why the world should just clammer after the bible...I gave you just one great example from another culture. So, we need more proof...Just because you find a scant verse or two about the world being round etc, is not proof. The pegans knew that hundreds of years before the bible was written. So, what other undeniable proof does the bible offer?

And along that point, just when do you believe that the old testiment was written? Just curious on that since you seem to indicate that it is the oldest known text.

As for the return of the Jews...are you talking about the verse that says..." As a the fig tree puts forth it's bud...." ?? Is that the earth shattering proof that the bible's prophecies all come true? The book of nostrodomus has more insightful visions and predictions that can also be proven as fulfilled and he stared down into a caldron and saw his visions...best as I can remember from the History Channel.

So, if you are saying that visions and prophecies that come to pass are a sure sign of proof that something is true, then we all need to look at everyone that has had a dream, vision or prophesy that's come to pass and listen to what they have to say.

In short, just because someone produces signs, wonders and miracles does not indicate that they are the ones to follow. Things like that have happened for as long as man has been around, happened to every culture through the ages, and continues to happen to this day.

And since you and I weren't around when the OT was written, there is no way to know if the so called prophecies that seem to be fulfilled - during the OT - were written before or after the fact.

As for understanding the truth...well, that's the journey I'm on.

I would welcome god to come down to me and say " THIS is what I meant!" He's welcome any time. But Jehovah/Jesus doesn't. And if he did then I would want him to tell not only me, but every living soul on the earth the same EXACT thing and have an open line to his throne at any time when a question arises, and then everyone get the same EXACT answer every time. That doesn't seem to hard for the Creator of all.

If he were interested in his lost people knowing the truth of his word, he would take the time out of his busy schedule and do just that.

Mr. Starnes, honestly, is that the best you can quote from the bible to prove that it is inerrant and correct down to the period??? If that is all it takes as proof for you then I'm guessing that you need to change religions because the Sumarian writings, which predate the bible show that they knew about our whole solar system and the number of planets that we have orbiting the sun, and didn't mention anything about Jehovah of the old testiment. Current science didn't realize that until the relatively recent past.

As for the number of stars...who are the "they" that you mentioned believing in only 1100? The sheep herders in the field? Maybe you should check more than just one or two accounts to try and relay what was generally accepted as scientific truth for that day.

The bible also says that the earth has four corners....sounds like someone thought it was flat at that time. Joshua told the sun to stand still. I'm sure there's scads more but do you honestly think that's your best scriptures to PROVE that the bible is correct down to the last period?

Though I'm not going to take the time to post, there are countless verses, geneologies, commandments etc that are either in direct opposition to each other.

Any one can just search the internet for Bible errors and up pops more than you can read in several settings.

I will admit that science doesn't have all the answers, and that they are probably wrong on alot of stuff, but at least they are willing to admit they are wrong in light of more knowledge when it comes their way or when it's discovered.

You, on the other hand, have cramped yourself into a little box called the bible and say that it is the ultimate truth, with no room for error or further enlightenment.

And, I might add, if the bible had any REAL proof, that didn't require faith to believe, just good old fashioned proof that it was inerrant and indeed the word of god, THEN, there couldn't be any arugments as to it's validity because there would be absolute proof....which there is none, unless you put on the blinders and let your faith take care of all the inconsistancies.

No one can deny today that the planets orbit around the sun, when not too long ago science and religion in general believed differently. I wonder how many people the catholic church put to death because of it. It's absolute PROOF that can't be denied.

The bible can't offer anything near that kind of proof....only something that resembles proof because of the believers faith in it.

Surely the god of all there is can give his creation some honest proof as to what he's all about, rather than leaving mankind with something that can so easily be dismissed, questioned, twisted and misunderstood by the masses. If the bible is the only thing there is, then god must not care that much about who gets it right and who doesn't.

And if it's not that important as to whether you get it right or not, then what's the big deal about arguing over it in the first place?

I am sure the familys of those Forgein Government officals who were killed by the CIA so the U.S. Government could install the leaders they wanted like the Shaq of Iran with his death squads will be comforted to know that they were killed for GODLY PRINCIPLES.

Just like the people in South America who face the ARMED MILITIA of their American Corporation if they want to form a Union and maybe demand to be paid more the $0.30 cents and hour !

Like the people of Nigeria are glad when the Dictatorship there sells U.S. Oil Companys oil cheaper than Opec but the citizens still live on less than a dollar a day. While their nations only natural resource is being robbed and the funds going off the Swiss Bank accounts.

Yeah those GODLY PRINCIPLES too bad those GODLY PRINCIPLES are only taked about but seldom acted on. Heck in the USA preying on the poor is SPORT for most businesses. Let's make a product they need but let's make it really cheap so it breaks easy and they must replace it a lot or lets chages the laws so business has more right to cheat, lie and steal.

Where is screw the poor written in that good book????-

Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment. And whoever insults a brother will be brought before the council, and whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell."
Just one example of Mr. B's statements calling a fellow human a fool. "You realize how foolish your arguments have become don’t you?"

They both sound pretty good to me. What did you have in mind?

Where's the love here?

If someone were to stumble upon this mess who had given some thought to becoming a Christian some of you folks would scare them away.

Do you want to be right or do you want to live in love?

I've dodged questions? Get a life, kid.

Mr Taylor however still has some questions that he has dodged. I'd be intersted in seeing his answers.

Mr. Walker,

You win. I can’t continue with your reasoning when it should be the skills of a minister, someone who can set down with you and explain utilizing face time.

It appears you have been involved with an unorthodox church and have some poor views because of it. I assure you, if you would involve yourself with a church that is built upon solid bible doctrine and wanted to learn, you would and it would benefit you greatly.

I’m sorry I don’t have the time to continue because it seems no matter what is presented, you’ll find some way to counter in which you distort the “plain” teaching of scripture and take it to an extreme.

So, I’ll concede here and you all can revel in your victory. Does that satisfy you?

Great posts, Mr. Walker. Ive grown tired of the repetitive, ignorant nature of this kid, but those were very good.

M Early,

People worship many different things. Some even do it without knowing that they are or know that they are and just can’t come to terms and admit it.

It’s all about perspective and until one sees rightly, whatever we think that might or might not be, our perspectives are askew and we cannot agree one with another.

Perspective is key.

kajen says..."Sorry, but the bible is that way. Man turns the words into whatever he wants them to say. It man’s fault Mr. Walker, not Gods. Want an example of how things are taken out of context and twisted to make a point. Simply go back and look what Lana Kennedy did with the walmart example. Missed the whole point in trying to prove how smart she is. That’s what man does with the Bible..."

My point EXACTLY. The bible IS that way. That's why it can't be the ultimate guide to eternal salvation. It's waaaay too easy to misunderstand, too many errors, too much period for an all knowing god to have written and then tell his people to live by it. The true words of a creator would be written or relayed in such a way as to have NO misunderstanding about his commandments. You're right, man is the reason for all of the division, but then, man is doing the best he can with what he has to work with....and that's gods fault. It's funny that the laws of the land here in the USA are alot more direct and easily understood for the most part...and they are the direct compilation of man. On the other hand, we have god, who leaves us a bible as the way to know him (and stake our eternal destination by, and from one person to the next they cant understand with any real certainty, outside of subjective faith, what god really meant.

This is one major issue I have with christianity and the bible. I would rather serve a god that can speak to me directly, but yet tell me the same thing that he told the man setting right beside me.

Kajen says "...You don’t know Scripture Mr. Walker see passage above. I don’t know why man wants to change what the Lord said. Oh yeah I do, because he knows better than God. That’s right...."

Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These MEN as you refer are part of the ones that wrote the inspired bible Mr. B.

This scripture is totally ignored by most christians , and by you as well, IYou don’t know Scripture Mr. Walker see passage above. I don’t know why man wants to change what the Lord said. Oh yeah I do, because he knows better than God. That’s right.
It's a direct commandment that Peter gave to inquiring minds about what to do to be saved. These same kind of MEN wrote all of the new testiment, saying they were inspired of god to do so. If acts 2:38 is the inspired word of god, and if these inspired men acted upon the words of jesus and baptised people in this manner, then I would think that it would be the standard to go by, since they lived and walked with Jesus....Not Moses who never knew christ and lived 2000 years or so previously.

I honestly think that the reason people don't follow that commandment is because they don't want to get their hair wet if they go down in the water...and would ruin a freshly pressed suit or dress.

And if you are still using the old testiment as a guide and example of how to proceed with new testiment scripture, then how to you decide what part of the OT is 'carried over' into the NT?

I wonder what Peter would have said to you if your reply to him was...."Oh wait, you don't know what you're talking about. I have a better way...Moses told me so. Peter go read the old testiment because it's god breathed and what you are telling these people isn't necessary..." I'm sure he would have thought you were a pharisee or something.

So, you have one group that says Acts 2:28 is the way...and we have you that says Matthew 28:19 is the way....and you have denominations that won't make the compromise and do it either way. These are the people that have studied, and are lead by the spirit of god.

So, how did you decide to choose which way is right for you. And what's your belief concerning the people that disagree with you, yet following the same bible and holy spirit?

Why did you ignore Peter's commandment?

In case some people don't get it...
That last post is all about perspective also.

Well, you can be sure, I'm all for locking up the ENTIRE world.

I could write a book about the ALMIGHTY BANJO THE CLOWN, throw in a few references to the prophesies of Nostrodaumus, a few comments on local politics, go beat up the money lenders, and then get myself executed, after which a few of my friends can open my coffin and hide the body... WHO's to say, a thousand years from now people may be worshiping the Banjo, the Early, and the Holy Song.

The only reason that the religions of the world have morphed into the all pervading monstrosity that they are is because people need the comfort that there is "something" after we die, otherwise what's the point right??? The problem with that is, there is absolutely NO SCIENTIFIC evidence of any such thing, and before 'someone' gets started, BELIEF, FAITH, and the BIBLE -- ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

M Early,

You would have to lock up most of the world. Because if it is not people claiming it from the Bible, they have their own version of God inspired Scripture.

You make that claim, but you are viewed in that same light on the other hand. It is all perspective.

And if baptism isn't important to salvation then what's the point of doing it in the first place?

I never said it wasn’t important. You’re putting words in my mouth like the rest. I said it wasn’t salvific and that it is a great sin not to be baptized. Go back and read Mr. Walker.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

You said: Surely if god knows all things he knew that even this simple part of the bible would cause complete splits and diversity within the christian ranks so why in the heck would he inspire his deciples to tell everyone to 'go and do it in the name of Jesus Christ '....why not just say what Jesus said in the first place???

You don’t know Scripture Mr. Walker see passage above. I don’t know why man wants to change what the Lord said. Oh yeah I do, because he knows better than God. That’s right.

You said: “I'm sure god could figure out a way to speak so that there would be no mistakes, no questions and no room for interpretation, and the bible is not the way.”

Sorry, but the bible is that way. Man turns the words into whatever he wants them to say. It man’s fault Mr. Walker, not Gods. Want an example of how things are taken out of context and twisted to make a point. Simply go back and look what Lana Kennedy did with the walmart example. Missed the whole point in trying to prove how smart she is. That’s what man does with the Bible.

You said: “Why would you use an old testiment viewpoint when the fresh, inspired word of the holy spirit in the new testiment show's jesus followers doing it a different way?”(sic)

Because it is there for us to learn from. All scripture is god breathed Mr. Walker. The OT presents to us many shadows of what was to come. Just because there is a new, doesn’t mean the old is worthless. Jesus himself quoted old testament scripture.

Your argument is breaking down at every turn Mr. Walker. Again, I’m not your problem, the Word of God is.

kajen says "....Sprinkling or pouring water upon a person is an acceptable method as well as dipping. As Moses sprinkled the alter with blood, we can use this method in baptism...."

Really? Moses did alot of things under the law that isn't carried over to the new testiment. Why would you use an old testiment viewpoint when the fresh, inspired word of the holy spirit in the new testiment show's jesus followers doing it a different way? The law is over and done with but this is another great example of how people can snatch up little bits and pieces from here and there to make it fit their comfort level.

Kajen says ".....Mr. Walker, please go back and read my post. I stated I was anointed with water, not oil and that was my mistake. Should have said sprinkled with water rather than anointed. And it was in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and by a Methodist preacher if you must know. Can I ask why you assumed it wasn’t?...."

Well, the whole point of asking you how you were baptised is because there are many fundamentalist churches that believe that baptism, should be in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, not Father Son and Holy Spirit...and make it a very big part of their doctrine. You and other scholars may say that it doesn't matter which way you do it, but again, when you keep harping about study, study and read and pray for god's divine guidence, this is what you get. I bet you a dollar that if you were to go to most any trinitarian church and asked to be baptised in the name of Jesus christ instead of FS&H that they would refuse it because it isn't a part of their doctrine.

And to further the point, this is just one little tiny subject that is open to interpretation. There are plenty of fundamentalist scholars that believe in the Jesus Christ baptism, so who you are you gonna believe is hearing from the real Holy Spirit? And if baptism isn't important to salvation then what's the point of doing it in the first place?

There are plenty of christians that would tell you that you haven't been baptised at all because Jesus commandment was to baptise in the NAME of the father, son and holy ghost. You sir, were just baptised in titles. And they arrive at this revelation through their interaction with the holy spirit.

So, take this example and carry it through hundreds of like commandments and verses and it perfectly shows how the bible just fosters confusion and division.

You can go to your website and read it all based on someone elses 'opinion' as to what it all means, but the bible it's self does not offer such commentary on it's own. So what you have is you, Mr. B that uses this website and it's interpretation because it has a ring of truth for YOU.

Surely if god knows all things he knew that even this simple part of the bible would cause complete splits and diversity within the christian ranks so why in the heck would he inspire his deciples to tell everyone to 'go and do it in the name of Jesus Christ '....why not just say what Jesus said in the first place???

This is just one example of the mess that the bible has made of peoples belief systems. And it is NOT an attribute of an all knowing creator.

I'm sure god could figure out a way to speak so that there would be no mistakes, no questions and no room for interpretation, and the bible is not the way.

Kajen,
You are basing ALL of your arguements and responses on the words of a BOOK written by MEN who CLAIM that "GOD" told them what to say.

You do realize that ANYONE who made that claim today would be sent to the LOONEY bin right? AND WITH REASON.

Mr M

You can call me all the names all you want and accuse me of want you want, my Lord informed us with his WORDS, yep he spoke them, that people like you would surely try to take us down. Sad thing is you all think this fight is with me. It’s not. By rejecting His Word and His truth, you fight and reject Him. Truly a sad state of affairs for His church, a shame smart guys like you want to run it into the ground when you can.

But you keep on disrespecting God. I’ll choose to honor Him by proclaiming His truth as told by His Word.

Are you a Christian Mr. M? Can I ask if your orthodox in your beliefs or are you one of those new agers, word of faith, I can sin no more Christians?

I think you’re really mad because you thought you had me with your question and I proved otherwise, using Scripture. Truth be told.

Kajen said:

"Mr. M, excuse me but what dichotomy taking into account your input. Christians are never told they can’t be successful and well off as long as they do not seek the riches here as their reward. The story of the rich man not giving up his riches is a prime example of that. He loved his wealth more than the Lord and Jesus knew that and so it was written for us to learn from. One can still succeed in a capitalist society and still devote his love and heart to Jesus. People do it every day.

I don’t know about your speaking thing. It is hard to actually “speak” the truth when you’re not speaking.

Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

The word here for speak in the Greek is alētheuō which is to “speak” or “tell” the truth. I guess if you want to get down to it, some people could sign the truth, some people can write the truth. You could even play charades for the truth. Since audibly speaking is for most of us the way we communicate, that’s how I most often choose to be truthful. I don’t know, really an odd question there, but point taken."

It's just as I thought. You're a fake Christian. You know those that Jesus spoke of when he said "Those that profess to be believers shouting from the streets, they are not true believers - the true believers pray & believe in private, where no one knows their heart but God". Yes, I'm paraphrasing, but it's settled - you're a psuedo-Christian. You like to shout from the street corner at how you're saved, and you know the way, and everyone else is heretical. You're a false prophet.

Why? I can tell by your answers. First, Jesus did in fact say it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than gain entrance into heaven. Enjoying riches for yourself, while observing & acknowledging suffering around you - from the starving in Africa to those tortured in the Middle East to those killed in wars everywhere - goes directly against Jesus' teachings. If you were *truly* leading a Christian life, you would eschew the trappings of wealth in order to become your brother's keeper.

Second, if you don't understand the idea of speaking without words then you truly do not know God. God always spoke without words. Jesus mostly spoke without words. They spoke in deeds. They spoke in how they acted. Jesus spoke through love. Washing the feet of the downtrodden was more speaking than a million words could say.

Fake Christians such as yourself give the true believers a bad name. Fake Christians like to think that because they can quote lines of scripture and tell other people that they're saved, they're saved. It's simply not true. This is the false prophet sense that literalists get from the Bible - that you can "say" 'Oh Jesus, only you are the way to the Father' and that's it, they're saved. Wrong. Being saved is an adjustment of the heart, and those that are truly saved are not wasting time on a computer shouting down non-believers - no, the truly saved are out doing the work of the Lord - not because works gets one into Heaven, but because with the change in heart that comes from being saved comes a true desire to serve the Lord.

I would recommend everyone ignore Kajen from this point forward - you're arguing with a false prophet, not one truly saved by the Lord. In the meantime, Kajen, you should go back and examine your own heart and ask God why you refuse to expunge yourself of your worldly comforts and truly become your brother's keeper.

Mr. Walker, please go back and read my post. I stated I was anointed with water, not oil and that was my mistake. Should have said sprinkled with water rather than anointed. And it was in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and by a Methodist preacher if you must know. Can I ask why you assumed it wasn’t?

Baptism doesn’t remove sin either Mr. Walker. As a matter of fact, Baptism is not salvific in and of itself. Salvation is by the grace of God only, through faith, although it is a great sin to neglect being baptized. Baptism is simply an outward sign of an inward working Mr. Walker. It a “sign” of many things including remission of sins.

Sprinkling or pouring water upon a person is an acceptable method as well as dipping. As Moses sprinkled the alter with blood, we can use this method in baptism.

There is no such thing as baptismal regeneration if you were wondering that. The Bible actually shows a salvific process and what takes place during each part. Salvation is eternal, past and present and future. If god chose me before the world, that’s when I was saved. The rest is just Him working to conform me to be who I need to be.

Predestination does not eliminate free will either. That is a common misconception. We have free will in that we choose according to our nature and that nature is sinful. When God regenerates us and only then, do we have the free will to choose that which is pleasing to God, but our sinful nature is not removed just yet. It remains a part of us as long as we are here.

God is not a respecter or persons. He loves each and every one of us, thus the reason His Begotten Son was offered as a perfect and pleasing sacrifice.

The attributes of God would be a study for those who have trouble reconciling all of these things.

Woman silent in church? Why? Some women are great teachers. If you would read some solid commentary on the verses that state this you would see and understand why this was put forth by God. Sorry to say, and I won’t be able to properly address it in this forum, but men, women, children, husbands, wives, as so on, they have roles established that when properly adhered to, benefit society in a very positive way. Paul spend a great deal of time in the New testament teaching on how we all relate to one another in our particular roles. I’ve listened to women preachers however. I can’t really say that it is a stumbling block. I honestly prefer a man to preach as I prefer a man doctor to look after me. It’s just a preference, a comfort level I guess.

Kajen,

As for baptism, being anointed with oil is not the scriptural recipe for this ritual act of remission of sins. It's either gotta be in the name of the F,S and H or Lord Jesus Christ, as the bible states. Anointing with oil sounds all pious and sweet but, John the Baptist had them down in the water. So, unless you've done that then I'm afraid your version of baptism is incorrect. If the bible is your example then I think you need to stick with the program.

As for predestination, thanks for posting the verses. It's a glaring issue of whether, according to Jehovah, that we actually have free will or not. If he chose his people before the foundation of the world then I guess the cards are just stacked against the rest of humanity, so why bother going out and preaching? It's a wierd topic but not surprising seeing as how he hardened Pharoahs heart just to make himself look even better when he performed his miracle freeing his people. That in it's self is a great reason to just forget about the whole thing. God should feel the same about everyone before during and after their birth. The bible clearly states that God chooses us - we do not choose him.

Since you've not followed the bibles instructions on baptism, I'm curious as to how you feel about women being in the ministry.

The bible plainly says for women to keep silent in the church. What's your take on that?

Mr. Taylor. I've answered every question from the last round. It's right below for anyone to see. You insult everyone here by implying they are too dumb to see for themselves that you are flat out wrong. Scroll down. Look at the questions you asked and the answers I posted.

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence with your childish games.

If you would like, you can ask more but please just two or three at a time. Or we can elaborate a bit more on what I've already posted. Choice is yours.

Remember, I've figured out your game. I know what's coming next.

Huh, I find it odd that Kajen makes a statement as to how "ridiculous" and "really reaching", when his own responses to valid questions here continue to do everything but answer the questions. Trying to incorporate a Wal-Mart checkout experience with the contradictory accounts of Jesus' final words is not only silly and meaningless, it is a prime example of your knowledge (or lack thereof) of the book of which you speak.

You continue to pick and choose the questions you feel like you are able to twist enough to appear somewhat credible in your "answers." It also appears you've taken a few courses in debate from Hannity and Limbaugh, never answering anything, only doing your best to pretend you understood the question, and inserting your opinions that are then claimed as some type of "answer."

Its like some type of right wing nutjob radio show, only the topic never moves from religion.

Mr Taylor, do you not find it odd that someone can say multiple things during any event but only have a few recorded. Are you serious??? I’m sorry you don’t get the walmart example. If you can’t understand that, then I don’t know if you really even want to try. John even tells us that not everything has been recorded.

Lana Kennedy. Change my statements then to it is too crowded and the other to it is not well lit. I can’t believe I even had to say that.

My goodness, you people are simply ridiculous in your attempts. You’re really reaching now and quite frankly, it is somewhat amusing to see you do so and sad as well.

You realize how foolish your arguments have become don’t you?

Mr. M, excuse me but what dichotomy taking into account your input. Christians are never told they can’t be successful and well off as long as they do not seek the riches here as their reward. The story of the rich man not giving up his riches is a prime example of that. He loved his wealth more than the Lord and Jesus knew that and so it was written for us to learn from. One can still succeed in a capitalist society and still devote his love and heart to Jesus. People do it every day.

I don’t know about your speaking thing. It is hard to actually “speak” the truth when you’re not speaking.

Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

The word here for speak in the Greek is alētheuō which is to “speak” or “tell” the truth. I guess if you want to get down to it, some people could sign the truth, some people can write the truth. You could even play charades for the truth. Since audibly speaking is for most of us the way we communicate, that’s how I most often choose to be truthful. I don’t know, really an odd question there, but point taken.

Kajen said:

"Matthew 28:19,20: 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Ephesians 4:11 – 15: 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

Speaking the truth is not arguing. Being truthful is the best witness we can offer."


Where does it say that "speaking the truth" literally means using your mouth to talk? Can one speak without using their lips to utter words? If so, is it not possible that what was meant was for everyone to go forth and speak, not with words, but with a Christ-centered life? What is more important, shouting down non-believers, or living a *Christ*ian life?

Second question: how does a true Christian reconcile the dichotomy between the bounty they receive as a member of our capitalistic society and the teachings of Christ to reject all that is antithesis to becoming Christlike?

I wondered if the irony was lost.

Glad we can make your day.

Actually the checkout line could be long in Wal-Mart because they only have one cashier working & she is slow as molasses.

At least that was my experience before I wised up & stopped shopping there.

On a side note, I appreciate the irony of using Wal-Mart in a discussion about Biblical interpretation.

You all make me laugh. Keep it coming.

Mr. B, I had stated when I gave the quote that it was taken from the website that you, yourself, had given ("This is from the web site that Mr. B quoted earlier.")

The point of my response to your Walmart example was that the example was of two statements telling the same information. The Bible does not give Jesus' last words in different forms, but each telling the same information. They are totally different statements.

As to timing, it could definitely make a significant difference. Since you seem to think we all need simplistic examples, I will return the favor. You tell your child it is time to go to school. If the child says, "Ok, I'm ready," and gets in the car, then everyone gets in the car and goes on their way. If the child says, "Why are you making me do this?" and fights against going, then the results are not the same. Of course, if the child first says, "OK..." and gets in the car and then on the drive to school asks, "Why....", then the results could again be altered.

"I know it is not that hard to understand." - Mr. Kajen B

The whole Wal-mart scenario makes very little sense. The verses of the bible I gave all list different "last words" of jesus as he expired on the cross. Do you not find it odd that, this being the infallible word of a mega-god, he could at least get the important parts to match?

How many writers of the gospels actually met jesus?

Lana Kennedy, I just wanted to be able to verify content and context. It not a bad thing to verify what someone has claimed.

“As to the Walmart example. The lines would not be long unless it was crowded. If it is crowded, then everyone knows the lines will be long. Either of these two statements would tell the listener the same thing.”

Do you have a point to this comment of yours? You’re more than welcome to answer the questions I asked of Mr Taylor if you feel his will be inadequate. So go ahead.

I’ll rephrase them so you understand better.

Who’s rendition of our trip to walmart was incorrect?

Did one version contradict the other?

Does the order in which I stated them make a difference or alter any of the facts?

So what significance is there to the timing of Jesus’ words while on the cross? And because one writer records one saying and a different writer another saying, does that necessarily render them both false. I don’t think so. The ultimate author wanted some recorded and worked through different men to accomplish that.

I know it is not that hard to understand.

Since you are going to accuse me of lying, Mr. B, here is the web site address that you yourself posted. It is on the page this URL brings up; scroll down to No. 9.
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/how-interpret-bible

As to the Walmart example. The lines would not be long unless it was crowded. If it is crowded, then everyone knows the lines will be long. Either of these two statements would tell the listener the same thing.

In my humble opinion, the fact that our nation was indeed founded upon Christian principles, or at least with the recognization of a higher power, God, was best shown by Ricky Kiser when he posted the following:


According to American Policy Roundtable (n.d.), "If you don't know where you've come from, it's pretty hard to determine where you're going.

The history of America is an awesome drama. Our nation is no accident. For hundreds of years, the dream of liberty was carried across European history to be birthed on these shores, and biblical truth, biblical thinking, played a pivotal role in the birthing of America.

But was America founded on Christian principles? Just read the first words of the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

From the beginning, America's founders accepted the reality that basic rights were inseparable from human beings and they recognized that those inalienable rights were not given by government nor acquired by force, but that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the gifts of the Creator.

In 1844, the Court said, "Christianity is part of our common law."

In 1892, the Supreme Court said this: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national because this is a religious people. This is historically true."

In 1930, the U.S. Supreme Court said this: "We are a Christian people, according to our motto."

In 1952, the U.S. Supreme Court said, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.

The question isn't - Was America founded on Christian principles? The question is - what world view has given birth to and sustained America? The answer to that question is simple: Christianity.

Still not satisfied?

Beliefs of the Founding Fathers - Quotes from our Founding Fathers on Religion
Information gathered by the American Policy Roundtable

George Washington
Source - Christianity As An Influence On The Founding Fathers by John A. Sterling
Belief - Episcopalian

"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.




Thomas Jefferson
Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief - Episcopalian

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."




James Madison
Belief - Episcopalian

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785

"It is not the talking but the walking and working person that is the true Christian." In a manuscript on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison makes this statement.

"We have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations." March 4, 1809 Inaugural Address

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]




Benjamin Franklin
Belief - Episcopalian

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech




John Adams
Belief - Unitarian

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart”.



American Policy Roundtable. (n.d.). Rediscovering American History . Retrieved July 28, 2009, from http://www.aproundtable.org/issues.cfm?issuecode=history

Ricky Kiser

Mr. Taylor,

I think I understand your hang up with the last words.

Let me give an example that maybe you can understand.

Me, you and Mr. Walker go to Walmart for let’s say some clothing. While there I state that I do not like shopping at Walmart because it is too crowded. Later I say I don’t like the lack of checkers and the lines are too long. Upon returning home, you tell someone I said I don’t like walmart because it is crowded. Mr. Walker upon returning home says that I said the checkout lines are too long.

Which one of you is wrong? Neither. Have you contradicted one another? No the fact is you both would be right as I said both of those things. Your perspective is I didn’t like the crowd. Mr. Walkers is I didn’t like the lines and both are true. Now which did I say first and does it really matter?

I can’t make it any more simple.

Mr Taylor,

See this is why I don’t like to correspond with you. I answered your questions and then you ask again as if I didn’t.

You ask again after I answered:

“So regarding Joseph, Jesus' earthly dad, why does Matthew 1:16, and Luke 3:23 totally contradict one another?”

Answer again: ““Some have thought Joseph's father had two names, one was Jacob, and the other Eli; others take them to be two different persons, and suppose that Joseph was the natural son of the one, and the legal son of the other, either by marriage, or by adoption, or by the law of the brother's wife. But the truth of the matter is, that not Joseph, but Jesus, is by Luke called the son of Eli, as will be made to appear in its proper place.” John Gill”

After I answered the first time you ask again:

“On the last words of Christ, Matthew 27:46,50 Luke 23:46, and John 19:30 all give different last words/accounts.”

Answer again: “Last words of Jesus:

Well, there haven’t been last words. But if you mean the last recorded words in the Bible; prior to his death on the cross a harmony of the gospels puts seven saying in and around the same time frame. “it is finished” seems most appropriate but that is speculation as the Bible doesn’t say for sure. But the order in which they were stated is not as important as what He stated.

After he rose again He spoke too. Prior to His ascension he stated: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

He then spoke to the Apostle Paul and John while at Patmos too. But, He hasn’t spoken last words. He lives.”

I copied and pasted from my last response to you. Are you simply asking again because you didn’t read or just refuse to accept the answers? I don’t mind either way I guess. I did as you asked just can’t figure out why you keep asking over and over again. It’s really wasting space.

Mr Walker,

How about these then:

You asked how I was baptized. My head was anointed with water.

You questioned predestination:

I hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith to the best of my ability. Maybe how they explain it will help me to answer.

Rather than post it here, I’ll post the link and you can check it out to see were I’m coming from should you desire:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html

To elaborate a bit more;

Ephesians 1:4-5, 11 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;”

This is not the only Scripture that supports predestination. It is upheld throughout but this is what comes to mind as an example. It shows the “when” His chosen were chosen. Before there were people, before the world they were chosen. God is not capricious. His choices are simply the right choices from all eternity.

Predestination is the assurance to all that God is sovereign, that He has complete control. Without it there is Chaos.

Here is another:

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Problems with predestination arise from our depravity; we want to be our own boss, in control of everything. Fact of the matter is, in following our own tendencies we still fulfill God’s purpose.

Predestination secures our place in destiny. It logically shows sovereignty with the Creator. Is secures me and conforms me to how I need to be in order for God to hold me as He as promised. He conforms me to the likeness of His Son who has atoned for me and imputes His righteousness upon me. It is all done by God.

So regarding Joseph, Jesus' earthly dad, why does Matthew 1:16, and Luke 3:23 totally contradict one another?

On the last words of Christ, Matthew 27:46,50 Luke 23:46, and John 19:30 all give different last words/accounts.

Seriously, you have never read or decided it would be wise to research the history of your own religion, outside the book you bury yourself in? Doing so will lead you to the mythical figures who preceded your religion, along with finding near-identical accounts of how those previous gods/saviors came into this world.

Concerning your belief in the talking snake, etc, I have no response.

Kajen, thats ok...if you wanna respond just pick one or two and make a go of it. I didn't really expect you to answer every jot and tittle, but it's just courtious to ackowledge a question rather than ignore it.

Well Mr. Taylor, I guess next time I’ll define few.

Anyway, which Joseph do you question?

Jesus’ Earthly father :

“Some have thought Joseph's father had two names, one was Jacob, and the other Eli; others take them to be two different persons, and suppose that Joseph was the natural son of the one, and the legal son of the other, either by marriage, or by adoption, or by the law of the brother's wife. But the truth of the matter is, that not Joseph, but Jesus, is by Luke called the son of Eli, as will be made to appear in its proper place.” John Gill

Joseph the son of Jacob and Rachel? Self explanatory.

Joseph the son of Asaph? Self explanatory.

Joseph the son of Judah? Self explanatory.

Joseph of Arimathea? Doesn’t say.

Joseph Barsabas? Doesn’t say.

Last words of Jesus:

Well, there haven’t been last words. But if you mean the last recorded words in the Bible; prior to his death on the cross a harmony of the gospels puts seven saying in and around the same time frame. “it is finished” seems most appropriate but that is speculation as the Bible doesn’t say for sure. But the order in which they were stated is not as important as what He stated.

After he rose again He spoke too. Prior to His ascension he stated: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

He then spoke to the Apostle Paul and John while at Patmos too. But, He hasn’t spoken last words. He lives.

Talking Snake: Yes, but it was not the snake talking on its own for it was the devil talking through it. Satan was the tempter and the snake his instrument.

Big fish: Yes, no reason not to. God has command of all His creatures and can make any of them serve His design.

Wooden Megaship: Yes. Matthew Henry comments on that as such:

“God could have secured Noah by the ministration of angels, without putting him to any care, or pains, or trouble, himself; but he chose to employ him in making that which was to be the means of his preservation, both for the trial of his faith and obedience and to teach us that none shall be saved by Christ but those only that work out their salvation. We cannot do it without God, and he will not without us. Both the providence of God, and the grace of God, own and crown the endeavours of the obedient and diligent.”

As far as the animals, God brought them to him.
Genesis 6:19,20: 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive.

Similar Stories: I’m not that familiar with the stories of Mithras, Horus, Osisris, and Dionysus enough to elaborate on that. Wasn’t Horus a bird? I don’t know, I would have to study those better.

Goat herders: I don’t have time to comment on all books, but none of the new testament authors were goat herders as I recall. Paul who was used by God to pen much of the New Testament was an educated man. Luke was a physician although he doesn’t actually name himself as the author of Luke and Acts, he is credited with recording them. But the human author is not important, for working through them was the primary author, the Holy Spirit.

I just don’t have time or space to go through them all on this forum.

This is like babysitting a four year old. Since its obvious you refuse to answer any questions concerning the legitmacy of certain excerpts of your book in modern times, here's some new, different attempts:

Who was Joseph's father?

What were Jesus' last words?

Do you believe that a talking snake existed on this earth?

Do you believe a man lived in a "big fish" for three days and nights?

Do you believe that two of every species on earth was herded into some type of wooden mega-ship?

Why are the story of Jesus so similar to the stories of Mithras, Horus, Osisris, and Dionysus?

Why would an all powerful all knowing god resort to having goat herders write his word for him, (all)knowing it wouldnt be good enough to convince the majority of the population?

And whose heart is hard.

Point taken Mary Jo I get what you are saying.

Very well put and I will re-read the sermon on the mount.

Thank you

And to add to that… Shutting up and not defending our faith is their goal. There is an entire branch of theology devoted to this. It’s called apologetics. It is for the defense of the historic Christian faith. Not the Christianity some people claim today. The Church today is in dire straits because of man’s pride. But all is not lost. Some people are beginning to realize.

“Divisions and separations are most objectionable in religion. They weaken the cause of true Christianity...But before we blame people for them, we must be careful that we lay the blame where it is deserved. False doctrine and heresy are even worse than schism. If people separate themselves from teaching that is positively false and unscriptural, they ought to be praised rather than reproved. In such cases separation is a virtue and not a sin.” - JC Ryle

Oh, Mary Jo, that’s want they want. Do you not know the “great commission”?

Matthew 28:19,20: 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Ephesians 4:11 – 15: 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

Speaking the truth is not arguing. Being truthful is the best witness we can offer.

So then you won't put up???? That's what I thought. But I bet you won't shut up either so where do we go from here?

Then use your little fingers, scroll down this comment board, and start answering the questions. To repeat them would be to ask for this same song and dance response out of your replies. Answer the questions. They are there. Start wherever you would like.

Same goes for you Mr. Taylor that I proposed to Mr. Walker. So… Put up or shut up. What more do you want?

You've not answered a single question here without attempting to use meaningless garble to dance around the answer. Its become a joke anymore.

Mr. Walker,

Let me offer this; If you are seriously expecting me to answer anything, keep it to a doable pace. You don’t really expect me to answer 10, 15 or 20 questions in one sitting and one post now do you?

I’ll answer questions the best I can but at least meet me halfway and present them a couple or few at a time and allow for brevity since neither me, nor would I think you, have that much time on our hands.

I do work for a living and can only really respond in the early morning or late evening.

So we can start again if you would like. What questions do you feel I’ve been dodging or not responding to?

M early, I really expected more from you based on the last time we spoke. Oh well.

Lana Kennedy,

Don't worry about being respectful to me. I've done nothing to earn it.

Lana Kennedy,

Can you at least provide a link so we can verify content and more importantly, context.

This is from the web site that Mr. B quoted earlier. He's even better than his own experts he quotes!!

"I’ve already presented other verses which seem to agree with my conclusion. However, it is not in agreement with all of the commentaries I’ve read on this verse. At this point I would need to present my conclusion to others to see what they think. Just because I studied the Word and arrived at a conclusion does not mean that it is correct. But it doesn’t mean it is wrong either.

By consulting with others, by examining the word again, and by seeking God and his illumination, I can only hope to arrive at the best possible conclusion about a passage."

Mr. Early....lol, yeah I know what you mean. I read his posts and just sit there.....

Then I wonder what his reality is really like, as in believing that he and the whole world is so wicked and depraved and sinful and on and on...and then resorts to wanting us to check out a website that explains his point of view, but at the same time saying that we shouldn't follow after mans interpretations on the bible.

I don't really think that Jesus got his own website and is using it to direct wayward sinners to the correct interpretation of his word. I really think that Kajen should be able to discuss the bible without the aid of someone else doing it for him. What he doesn't seem to realize is that the website he mentioned is just more scholars, preachers or 'men' that have explained things in such a manner that it makes sense to him, thus he believes that their take on it all is correct.

Crazy.

I'm still hoping that he, for one, will at least attempt to explain away a few little things that I brought up in a previous post as to why christians today don't follow certian portions of the bible today. Not that he can change my mind, but I'm curious as to his thought process in trying to explain it away. And at least admit that he really doesn't know for certain who or how or what the bible really means on many issues. And then at least admit that everyone prays and reads and studys and still comes up with different opinions so your salvation and eternal life is really like flipping a coin to see which slant you wanna adhere to, cause everybody can't be right. And if you follow after false doctrine then you are as lost as the next sinner.

Gosh, I think I'm just typing in circles...but you get my point.

No, Mr. B, you are the one taking the scripture and twisted it to suit your own personal needs and wants. People like you ARE the reason so many leave the churches. People like you are the reason churches are no longer a place for fellowship, love, and guidance.

I have tried my best to be respectful to you, but you cannot bring yourself to do the same. Your arrogance is mind-boggling. The majority on here have disagreed with you; the atheist, deist, in between, and even christians. Given this, a rational person would put theirself in check. Your behavior has been anything but christian.

Thanks Kevin, I couldn't think of anything inteligent to say, I guess I read to many of his posts and apparently "it's" catching.

Kajen says "...No Mr. Walker. If it isn’t biblical, it was not the Holy Spirit telling you those things. It was man. Problem is people put their faith and trust in men and take their word as gospel rather than reading the True Gospel for themselves. So they don’t know the truth. And whose fault is that really? If you choose not to read and learn whose fault is it really?..."

Ok. Here are some new testiment biblicals for you, again....

Do not divorce
women keep silent in the church
women don't cut your hair unless you cover your head
Be baptized in the name of the lord jesus christ
God chooses you by predestination
Even if you do miracles in his name he can send you to hell regardless and say he never knew you.
Men don't have long hair

Thou shalt not kill. But our nation doesn't think twice about that when going to war, but we are a christian nation??? Jesus didn't say don't kill unless you are defending your country.

There's tons more but I aint gonna look it up, this is enough to get the point across. These are things that are written in YOUR bible, and it says for you to obey these things, and most christians don't because they interpret it a different way...why? Because it's uncomfortable for them or they just feel it isn't for this day we live in. Do you honestly think that the 1000's of denominations that disagree with each other haven't read the bible??? That's rediculous. They all try to follow the bible and that's what they've come up with so far...a bunch of confusion, and beliefs based on their own 'holy spirit.' So again, whose holy spirit is the right one?

People read the bible for themselves, pray over it and still it's the same results whether it comes from a preacher or their own revelations....The bible inspires division and disagreements because there can be so many different interpretations.

For instance....the bible CLEARLY states, when a guy asked how he could have eternal life, and the bible says..."Repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost.".....

So, I ask Mr. Kajen, have you even followed that verse? It's written as simply as it can be...but how many christians have actually done it? Most are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And the point is this... A man asks how to have eternal life. If you don't have to be baptized in the name of Jesus then why was he instructed to do so?

How were you baptized by the way?

Lana Kennedy,

That is exactly the problem right there. People like you take God’s word and twist it into whatever you feel at that particular time. People like you are the very reason some people will never understand the bible. You make it say whatever you want by twisting it.

No, you’re not studied at all, at least not by Christian standards.

M Early,

I’m a moron because YOU don’t understand.

That's Just hilarious.

I’m a moron because YOU don’t understand.

Kajen says..."So are desires are the same. You want laws and by-laws based on your convictions. That’s no different than what Christians want. Why do you feel they don’t have the right to act upon their convictions? You’re doing the same thing Mr. Walker..."

No, not at all. For instance...Gay marriage, and abortion...those are two hot topics...Most Christians don't want gay marriage because of purely biblical priciples. I pay taxes and support this nation just like everyone else, but if I wanted to marry a person of the same sex and have all the benifits that straight people do there publice outcry from the right wing and fundies...just because they feel it is sinful based on the bible. It will destroy the fabric of our society, blah blah blah...Abortion, same thing. And that's just two obvious examples. I'm not going out saying christians don't have rights...you can do whatever as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights. I can look the other way when I see churches on every corner, I can choose not to listen to the preaching or watch their tv ministries. But you can't turn your head and ignore legislation and laws trumped up by christians when it affects your every day life and existence. That's the difference.

Kajen says..." I don’t have a problem with you all posting and I agree with your thoughts on why forums such as this exist. I can’t understand why you all feel a Christian’s opinion is less credible than yours...."

I don't have a problem with you posting yours either....post all you want and I'll respond if I feel the urge. The reason I feel a christians opinion is less credible is because most all christians base their opinions on the bible, which is a book that is, well, you know how we feel about the authenticity of the bible. If your opinions were based on something that could be proven verses something that you just have to pray over, believe and have faith in (plus everyone having a different holy spirit interpretation) then it would earn a little more respect. For instance....in math, 2+2=4...it always has and always will, it's not even in the bible, but our whole civilization/technology now adays is built on it. Math is something that everyone can agree on...and if a great creator made math such a universal language in how the cosmos works, then he/she/it can certianly do even better when it comes to his 'word' to live and be saved by....but it's not even close. And that, in my little opinion is a really great point.:)

Kajen says...."Is that so? So you respect the beliefs then and not the person who holds them. Kind of a catch 22. Because the manner in which your group is posting on this subject, it is clear to see that you don’t respect them or their opinion. You would rather they just keep it to themselves. Who in this string of conversation is saying you have to live by their morals? The original post was thanking a local business for displaying their beliefs. But rather than letting them hold that opinion respectfully, you all come out in droves to belittle and humiliate them. How is that respecting someone’s opinion or belief? You contradict yourself each time you post...."

First of all, I'll say that it was too late last night when I posted so I'll refine my statement about respect....I can and do respect people and their opinions, as long as they can respect mine....sorry I didn't' make that clear before. If there isn't mutual respect then why should I waste my energy being mr. nice all the time?
The original post was not just thanking the business for their displaying their beliefs....the person was going on and on about how he hopes the president was wrong about us not being a christian nation any longer because the nation is in great peril if he's right. The 'bedrock' spiritual principles being jetisoned is one of the best things that could be done for the nation. See, it's not just that he wants these spiritual principles, but he thinks its soooo bad if the nation doesn't live by them....America is LOST! So, us guys have something to say about that obviously.

I can respect his beliefs as long as he keeps them to himself, but no, he wants the whole nation to be under subjection to religious/spiritual principles....is that so hard to understand why we have to speak out about it? It's our nation too ya know.

And naw, don't think I've contradicted myself at all...maybe just not clarified it enough.

Kajen,
I've stayed away from this post for a few days, just came back this morning and read everything that's been posted over the past 3-4 days.

I must say, your arguements have convinced me, utterly and truely, that you are a MORON.

Absolutely nothing in your posts make even an ATTEMPT at RATIONAL thought, the only thing that you've said is "the bible is the truth" (paraphrase).

As for the laws subject, no-one on "the other side" is trying to make laws that make it illegal for you to do, think, or say anything you want. They just want it so that 'they' can enjoy ALL of the same freedoms that you do. Not a single person on the other side that I know of has in any instance called for a law to 'persecute' xtians. Though xtians like you, on the other hand, want and have forwarded (and have passed some) laws to prohibit things like the wearing of Muslim headwear, they want laws to prohibit same sex mariage, they want laws that prohibit abortion, they want laws that force teachers to teach creationizm instead of SCIENCE.... I could keep going but talking to you is useless.

Mr. B, one of the big differences between you and I is that I state my opinions as just that; my opinions. You state your opinions as fact, the truth, etc.

You said yourself, "......Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time. The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible." Yet, you state flat out with total arrogance that YOUR interpretation is 100% accurate and our interpretation (and anyone else who disagrees with you) is 100% wrong.

Most of Matthew is Jesus speaking with his disciples. Telling them how to spread the word of God, what to expect, etc. Most of the scripture you quoted was spoken to believers; not to non-believers. Matthew 23:33 was spoken to the children of sinners. Wanting them to turn away from the ways of their evil human fathers, and instead do as God wished. I believe Jesus spoke of fearing the wrath of God for evil doing; not God himself. Just like a child fears the punishment of a parent when they do wrong, but they do not fear their parent (they respect them). (my interpretation)

By using these particular scriptures as "proof" that what I said was wrong, tells me (in my opinion) that you have no problem reading the scripture, but do not have a full grasp of their meaning.

If the Bible is your law, then why do you need legal laws based on religion? A prime example is homosexual marriage. Banning it prevents a select group from marrying. Making it legal allows EVERYONE, including you, to marry. The non-religious laws DO NOT infringe in any way on the rights of the religious, but religious laws can't say the same.

You said, "I don’t have a problem with you all posting and I agree with your thoughts on why forums such as this exist. I can’t understand why you all feel a Christian’s opinion is less credible than yours." You feel, even state, you feel our opinion is less credible than yours, so . . .

Mr. Walker,

You stated: “I can respect any ones beliefs as long as I don't have to adhere to them myself.”

Is that so? So you respect the beliefs then and not the person who holds them. Kind of a catch 22. Because the manner in which your group is posting on this subject, it is clear to see that you don’t respect them or their opinion. You would rather they just keep it to themselves. Who in this string of conversation is saying you have to live by their morals? The original post was thanking a local business for displaying their beliefs. But rather than letting them hold that opinion respectfully, you all come out in droves to belittle and humiliate them. How is that respecting someone’s opinion or belief? You contradict yourself each time you post.

I don’t have a problem with you all posting and I agree with your thoughts on why forums such as this exist. I can’t understand why you all feel a Christian’s opinion is less credible than yours.

You also said: “And then, by your beliefs you try to influence others to make laws and by-laws that only reflect your personal convictions about morality. Us guys, on the other hand, just want to have religion taken out of the mix when it comes to the laws of the land, so we don't have to live under rules that are personally dictated by religious zealots.”

So are desires are the same. You want laws and by-laws based on your convictions. That’s no different than what Christians want. Why do you feel they don’t have the right to act upon their convictions? You’re doing the same thing Mr. Walker.

You asked in another post:

“So Kajen, how is a person to know which interpretations are from the Holy Spirit?”

Go to the website I posted. I can copy and paste but it seems redundant. You have nothing to lose by doing so.

“In the church I used to attend, the holy spirit told us that we couldn't have TV's, go to movies, women couldn't wear makeup or pants, women couldn't preach but had to stay home and have babies...couldn't do all those worldly things that all the other christians could do. The Methodist's holy ghost was a lot more relaxed and laid back. Funny though, we were both reading from the same bible and praying to the same god. Maybe it's just a flip of the coin as to what church a person should go to...if you're lucky you'll choose the right one lest you end up in hell believing in false doctrine.”

No Mr. Walker. If it isn’t biblical, it was not the Holy Spirit telling you those things. It was man. Problem is people put their faith and trust in men and take their word as gospel rather than reading the True Gospel for themselves. So they don’t know the truth. And whose fault is that really? If you choose not to read and learn whose fault is it really?

Lana Kennedy,

You don’t substantiate YOUR claims of knowing and studying the bible when you make claims like this:
“I can't imagine he would have shouted, put his finger in their face, and told them things that would have made them FEAR God instead of LOVE Him.”

Read about the money changers in the temple. Read about the trees bearing bad or good fruit.

Or how about this:

Matthew 10:14 ,15: 14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Or

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Or

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

I can go on and on. Point is, you claim to know what you are talking about but haven’t a clue. Problem is, you don’t understand that Jesus was God incarnate. If you study like you claim, you would know that. Jesus spoke about hell quite often.

Further, as much as He was God He was human and therefore showed emotion so yes He did get angry. He told people to fear God. He told people that hell awaits them if they don’t believe. So you and Mr. Douglas make these great claims about knowing the Bible, but every time you post, you prove otherwise.

Can anyone make any sense out of this???

"......Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time. The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible. This does not mean that accurate understanding of God’s Word is impossible. But it does mean that we need to approach His word with care, humility, and reason. Additionally, we need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word. After all, the Bible is inspired by God and is addressed to His people. The Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God’s word means and how to apply it."

Kajen, you just make it so easy to prove my point. Ok, you are saying that god goes to all the trouble of writing a bible that is his holy word, that is the guide for us to live by so we can know him and have eternal life.....But then you say that we are so sinful that we can't understand it completely and that we should seek the holy spirit for as much help as possible to know how to apply it....

Damn. Surely to god (forgive the pun) you can't see that god could have made things alot easier. I mean, eternal life is a big deal. According to you we only have one shot here on earth or we'll be burned like a 4th of July weenie. And we can't clearly know what our god's will is because his bible is too hard to understand??? That's just silly. He needs to just climb down off that throne and come here on earth and settle it once and for all before the end of the world.

In the church I used to attend, the holy spirit told us that we couldn't have TV's, go to movies, women couldn't wear makeup or pants, women couldn't preach but had to stay home and have babies...couldn't do all those worldly things that all the other christians could do. The Methodist's holy ghost was a lot more relaxed and laid back. Funny though, we were both reading from the same bible and praying to the same god. Maybe it's just a flip of the coin as to what church a person should go to...if you're lucky you'll choose the right one lest you end up in hell believing in false doctrine.

Kajen....""The Bible is God’s Word. But some of the interpretations derived from it are not. There are many cults and Christian groups that use the Bible, claiming their interpretations are correct. Too often, however, the interpretations not only differ dramatically but are clearly contradictory. This does not mean that the Bible is a confusing document. Rather, the problem lies in those who interpret and the methods they use...."

This is a really great point. So Kajen, how is a person to know which interpretations are from the Holy Spirit? These interpretations are no more contradictory that the contradictions that fill the bible it's self. The bible inspires confusion and contradiction...that's why there's so much of it...duh.

So, I ask you, which holy ghost are we supposed to follow? I'm sure everyone that cares to follow christian priciples prays and asks for guidence, so how is a person to tell???

They all say they are hearing from the same god!

Kajen says "........So speak hatred and disgust against God all you want, He’s big enough to deal with it. But you all won’t do that. You choose to belittle, demoralize, ridicule and attempt to humiliate someone simply because they exercised their right to voice their opinion that they believe. That utterly disgusts me. You all attempt, maybe not you, but they know who they are, to prey on the potentially weak and vulnerable. Unbeknownst to you all, many are strong in their faith while others not so strong. But yet you try no matter who it is....."

Kajen, You can't go posting on a forum like this and state how wicked and depraved and sinful and nasty we all are without someone having something to say...sorry, but you asked for it. We are just voicing our opinions as well, just like you are. Who really cares if someone's style of posting is a little more saucy, funny, sarcastic or whatever? For you to be utterly disgusted sounds like you are way too sensitive and way too unbalanced to get so worked up.

When people like you voice your opinions about things such as a "Christian Nation", it basically boils down to you wanting our nation, the place where "us other people" live as well, to be a christian nation, with christian values and laws and the like...And then, by your beliefs you try to influence others to make laws and by-laws that only reflect your personal convictions about morality. Us guys, on the other hand, just want to have religion taken out of the mix when it comes to the laws of the land, so we don't have to live under rules that are personally dictated by religious zealots. We don't care what you do with your personal lives or religion. If people like you didn't try to make us live by your set of morals then we would get along great. I can respect any ones beliefs as long as I don't have to adhere to them myself.

That's why we post on here. The same reason you do...so don't be all weepy and pitiful because you hit strong opposition. That's what this forum is for. So the choice is yours...if you wanna voice you opinions that's great, but don't be whinning when we respond. Butch it up!:)

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth, Mr. B. Where did I say that those who promote godliness should just shut up? If Hobby Lobby really wanted to do an ad that promoted God, then why didn't they put something like "God Bless You," instead of words that are found very few places other than on our MONEY. When you promote God, do you tell people "In God We Trust" or do you tell them "May God Bless You?" You show your true colors when you attack those of us who believe in God, but not the Bible. God and the Bible are NOT one and the same. I'm sure you have seen the WWJD things everywhere. That was started for a reason. Read the stories of Jesus. The stories portray him as a loving and kind man. If someone came up to him and said they did not believe in God, what do you think he would have done? My guess is he would have laid his hand on the person and spoke softly and gently about the wonders of God. I can't imagine he would have shouted, put his finger in their face, and told them things that would have made them FEAR God instead of LOVE Him. That sir, in my opinion, is the difference between promoting God and promoting YOUR thoughts.

I have studied the Bible for many years. I'm guessing almost as long as Mr. Douglas. I have visited pretty much every denomination of church to study their beliefs and practices. (Before reading the following, keep in mind that I am NOT saying I believe the following; only that some do) Did you know that some believe that Adam was the first son of God? That his sin is the reason we were originally forgiven of our sins if we asked since he did not want to destroy his son? That realizing humans took advantage of this and soon began to not even bother asking for forgiveness until on their deathbed, he began destroying them (climaxing with the flood). That he then realized that the humans did not fully understand what was and was not a sin that needed to be forgiven. It was for this reason that Jesus was sent to earth to teach the humans. Again, I am NOT saying I believe this, but it shows how differently people can interpret the Bible. God is the TRUTH; not words written and rewritten in a book by who knows.

"The Bible is God’s Word. But some of the interpretations derived from it are not. There are many cults and Christian groups that use the Bible, claiming their interpretations are correct. Too often, however, the interpretations not only differ dramatically but are clearly contradictory. This does not mean that the Bible is a confusing document. Rather, the problem lies in those who interpret and the methods they use.

We need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word.

Because we are sinners, we are incapable of interpreting God’s word perfectly all of the time. The body, mind, will, and emotions are affected by sin and make 100% interpretive accuracy impossible. This does not mean that accurate understanding of God’s Word is impossible. But it does mean that we need to approach His word with care, humility, and reason. Additionally, we need, as best as can be had, the guidance of the Holy Spirit in interpreting God’s Word. After all, the Bible is inspired by God and is addressed to His people. The Holy Spirit helps us to understand what God’s word means and how to apply it." - http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/how-interpret-bible

“People can't "discredit" your book, you see. Your god wrote that book.”

They why do you persist in trying to do so?

"When did well read become picking a few lines of God's Word to make a point that was discredited hundreds of years ago"-Kajen B.

Show me god's new book where he tells everybody he was "just kidding, that was only for a certain bunch of folks that just really irked me." People can't "discredit" your book, you see. Your god wrote that book.

Full of lies.

For all of you who are reading what Taylor and Douglas inc. are posting concerning seemingly contradictory or maybe difficult Bible passages, the following website offers really clear explanations to many of them.

They are arguments that were discredited hundreds of years ago but some people can’t let them go. It might be all they have to hold onto in thinking they have nobody but themselves to answer to.

http://www.carm.org/

Click on Bible Difficulties

Wow Mr. Taylor. You’ve spouted some pretty ridiculous stuff but claiming that I have ever claimed any part of the Bible is not relevant or that anything needs to be discarded… That one is way out there.

But in doing that you have made me realize your game as well Mr. Douglas’. You hope that onlookers will read what you post and take it as what actually transpired and won’t bother looking to see what I actually posted. You want to be heard because after all, you are smarter than God. Wait, correction, you think you are a god. I’ll get it right, don’t worry.

The fact is, every part of the bible is relevant. It cohesively upholds, supports and builds upon itself, every jot, every tittle.

Nice try and thank you for letting me on to your game. Now I know, I must get the last word or you all will be successful in getting your lies posted and read.

And by the way, it’s not me that is getting to you. What’s getting to you is your weak, disproven position that you desperately hold to because the truth scares you. It shouldn’t scare you. It will set you free. It will make you see what lies you have believed and passed on due to your fear.

Maybe instead of ignoring you, I should be focusing more on you because the hatred seems so strong with you. Captives are being set free every moment. Let Him break your chains.

As mostly, you are correct Mr. Douglas. I do recall the entire previous thread, and after beginning the conversation in a civil manner, when questioned, he/she/it then reduced all dialogue to nothing but repetitive, nonsensical remarks. And here it is yet again. There is a difference though, IMO, with this one. This one believes it wise to attempt some type of religious/non-religious debate, knowing full-on that within a matter of posts, it will be backed into a corner. At that point the arrogance and nonsense rears its ugly head, and it appears as though it takes great pleasure in using its god as a game, akin to "look what ive got and YOU dont!!, even though I dont know what it is or what it does, or hell, even where it came from or what I'm supposed to do with it...BUT IVE GOT IT!"

Yes, I have let it get to me yet again, knowing full well this kid is a lost puppy. Mr. B, you know full well that everything myself, Mr. Douglas, and Mr. Walker have posted here are sound, valid questions and observations, yet you prance around it all like a fairy on a pixie dust high. Its more than obvious, and you've most certainly alienated anyone who read your remarks who had an open mind. Trust me, and the rest of us, you could learn a thing or two on the "being a witness" part, from several veterans of your force.

Preach from the bible, and at least you are sticking (somewhat) to the religion and its roots. Start babbling on about how parts of the book have been discarded "hundreds of years ago" because they are now invalid, how after "studying" your eyes are miraculously opened to what god REALLY meant, and you then start up the path of the fringe cult-status.

Mr Douglas,

That's funny stuff. Would be even better if you paid me my dollar. Since you can't stick to your word, at least honor the wager.

Bottom of the barrel tactics. If you can't win 'em over, batter 'em with garbage and trash talk. Way to go!

That .... person .... seems to think that we of the choir hate God and the Bible. He/she/it can't get his/her/its head around the simple fact that it's not God or the Bible we hate - it's his/her/its own blathering ad nauseum. He/she/it never makes a point - just keeps on with the jibber jabber just like that godly palin thing. It sickens me that this is what the church has been reduced to.

Mr. Taylor, he/she/it merely wants the last word. I've proved it before. I'll try to prove it again. He/she/it has absolutely NO understanding of anything beyond his/her/its nose. The world - nay, the universe - revolves around he/she/it. To make matters worse, I think this is merely another incarnation of someone else who posted on here before.

He/she/it scans entire paragraphs and comments, picks out words and phrases and tries to disprove them, as well as belittling the commenter.

He/she/it is the one with the God complex. Not me. He/she/it has some real psychiatric problems. Maybe he/she/it is a former drug abuser or alcoholic. Those are the ones who make the most fervent bible thumpers.

They've nothing to lose because, along with their minds and their logic and their reason, they've lost everything else.

They have no recourse but to keep on with the jibber jabber until theirs is the last word. The godly Sarah and the godly he/she/it on the forum here - what a pair!

It's not a good thing to mention a comment on another thread, but it might come in handy here: if you care to understand he/she/it a little better, and you like murder mysteries, you should read "Jupiter's Bones" by Faye Kellerman. It's about 10 years old but still one of my favorites.

If you can get your hands on that book (and you can make it through the awful graphic murder and mutilation scenes), you will gain a better understanding of these cult fanatics. He/she/it fits the profile PERFECTLY.

Oh Mr. Taylor,

I have to respond. Something not good has got hold of your heart. Something bad, evil.

In that book you detest is the cure.

Fight what is in you. Pick up the book. Don't let hate control you. Fight it.

Your absolute baseless claims regarding your personal interpretation (as well as your own additions) to the bible are, as the bible itself names it, blasphemy. Your claims are lies, and are deceitful to those who have not read the bible. It now appears that, in the face of obvious decline in folks "comitting themselves" to the cause, the "preachers" of your claimed "gospels" have resorted to sleazy, used car salesmen tactics. As if those specific actions haven't been used before, your definitive, delusional conclusions concerning the parts of your book of which you refuse to adhere are quite sickening.

Lying and fabricating the message to fit the "modern" agenda. The epitome of all that is not good and well in the world. The foundation for everything that is wrong and unethical.

Mr. Walker,

A preacher I am not. That gift has not been bestowed upon me. I am simply honoring the truth. You may not think it’s the truth but your perception of it doesn’t change it.

You’re entitled to your thoughts and opinions and I’ve donned the uniform of the U.S. Army in the past and vowed to protect that right of yours.

But those of whose opinion differs from yours, they are entitled to it as well. I swore my life to protect their rights just as much as yours and it was and still is something I take to heart.

More than that, I’ve vowed to my Lord to speak the truth.

So when I see someone bombarded by folks and persecuted by the likes of some on here, I find it my obligation to help where I can in every way I can and that help is simply in the truth.

So speak hatred and disgust against God all you want, He’s big enough to deal with it. But you all won’t do that. You choose to belittle, demoralize, ridicule and attempt to humiliate someone simply because they exercised their right to voice their opinion that they believe. That utterly disgusts me. You all attempt, maybe not you, but they know who they are, to prey on the potentially weak and vulnerable. Unbeknownst to you all, many are strong in their faith while others not so strong. But yet you try no matter who it is.

I’ve never had a special revelation of God’s Word. It is there for everyone. I’m nobody special sir.

Kajen,

I hate to tell you but confused and ignorant were two words that I didn't want to use to describe the tone of your posts on here. I'm hoping you are more put together than what it appears here. I do think you are probably confused, deluded, ignorant and a product of your own imagination with regards to your own personal revelation of gods word. But I do honestly have pity for you because I was in the very same shoes you are in right now so I understand the mind set that you've so sternly created for yourself. If I were to meet you in person I would gladly shake your hand...so no hard feelings, just utter amazement. I'm sure you have similar sentiments about me and others on here.

But for the record, if you ever decide to go out to the masses and preach the gospel you will need to brush up on your deliverance. In order to compel someone into accepting gods word you have to be able to explain it first....and good luck with that.

Mr. Taylor,

Thanks again. :)

Mr. Douglas,

If the truth offends, then so be it. All one has to do is click the link, Oliver Douglas, to see what you are all about.

Well read? When did well read become picking a few lines of God's Word to make a point that was discredited hundreds of years ago.

Well read. What a crock. The only thing I'm sure you read is that which makes a vain attempt to discredit anything godly. Your type thrives on it.

Cretin? :) Well I've been called worse and worn it on my sleeve.

Where is my dollar?

I want to put you in the same category as Mr. Taylor but somehow, in a demented sort of way, am entertained by the stuff you post.

Why does what hobby lobby did offend you so much? It boggles the mind to try and figure it out. But wait, I know why, you want to be God. That's it. So clear now. In Oliver We Trust is what you want to see. Geesh.

I find it hilariously cute that the big ole leather bible most of the folks tote around has the name of a guy who fancied the males stamped and stitched right on the front of it. Kajen, buddy, It would do yourself and your "faith" a due service if you tucked your tail and ran. You are trying to "explain" your book to folks who are wayyyy ahead of ya on the indoctrinated scale, lived it, preached it, spread it, and ultimately understood that man has twisted the beautiful mythology of the texts into the absolutely evil monstrosity it has become. The arrogance and lies must surely impress your little xtian god and his boy.

Have mercy! The Cretin (the Latin interpretation, by the way - not the French) just called me a liar again. What's a person to do?

Worse than that, he/she has complimented Doris! Now her head's gonna swell and explode!

Don't know where that dollar thing keeps popping up from; maybe he/she usually gets paid for his/her services. Unsure.

If anyone on this forum has done more reading than I, it would have to be someone even older than I. It really ticks me off that this Cretin continues to state - flat out - that I have not read or studied his/her book at length. That would be ... why? Because I don't agree with him/her. Bottom line. Pure and simple. If I've gleaned something besides his/her interpretation of the book, I haven't read or studied it enough.

What a ... cruel, rude and small-minded person (definition of a jerk, but I'm much too nice to call someone a jerk!), who claims to be a child of god. Excuse me, but if this is his/her idea of godliness, it proves I've chosen the right road.

As for bulliness, I've yet to encounter such bullies as him/her and his/her counterpart, Mr. Starnes. You are beyond doubt the most obnoxious bullies to have ever come here to comment. I do not bully anyone. I state my case and go away for hours, or even days at a time.

His/her comments on this one thread outnumber mine by far. And I am the bully? Tell him/her what: this person has done more to drive people FAR AWAY from a church - any church - than I or anyone else here.

As a Deist, and a former professor of the way and the book, I can tell him/her that his/her comments do nothing but offend.

Some christian!

Some Cretin!

And by the way, Ms. Kennedy and Mr. Taylor (and other members of the choir too numerous to mention) are far more generous and kindly than these Cretins. Period.

Mr. Wilson, Yes same God. Men, again men, do awful things in the name of God even if it is not God sanctioned. Don’t blame God for the travesty man has made of His name.

Mr. Kiser, most excellent post sir. You encourage people to continue to remain string in Christ and to spread the Gospel with what you have posted. God Bless you.

Lana Kennedy, I did not miss the point. I hear you loud and clear. Those who promote godliness should just shut up. That’s your point after all. Banging like a gong. Put words in my mouth yet again because you can’t argue your own unsubstantiated points. I don’t think I even mentioned the word hell in this conversation but I’ll double check. But to correct you, God will condemn some. Who you ask, that’s between Him and them. He’s told us what is to come. Don’t say I’m doing it, you give me far too much credit that I surely don’t deserve. Give that Glory to God, not to man. And I never claimed a direct line other than His inerrant, infallible Word that He has revealed to us. I can convert nobody, again, Go d gets all glory, not me. But thank you anyhow.

Mr. Douglas, the questions have been answered and anyone who cares to read can see that. Stop your charade already. How dare I? I dare because I know you haven’t read what you claim to have read. Otherwise, you would know better. That’s how I dare sir. I think you’re upset because you can’t bully me like you do to so many others. The gig is up my friend. The BS as you claim stinks from your way. I’m still waiting on that dollar.

Mr. Walker, I’m not trying to convince you of anything. God can and will should he desire. Don’t learn from me. Pick up His Word and learn for yourself from the One who teaches rightly. Why do you think me or any other man has all of the answers? Find your answers in God. I’ll take boring over confused and ignorant any day Mr. Walker. God puts me just where He wants me.

Georgia Moody, most well said. I’ve always like that. God bless you.

Mr. Taylor, still not worth responding to.

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for her. Can you imagine what it must be like when all your icon and hero figures are incontrovertible, total failures?

All of this bickering, arguing, debating...for what? I mean really, Doris just set it straight. NOW we get it.

Religion is Man trying , by works, to get to God.
Christianity is God coming to man. You know Emmanuel, meaning God with Us.

Mr. Douglas, I'm not sure there is a term that adequately describes my beliefs!!! The description would include such words as common sense, love, and understanding.

What's really funny and obvious is that it is very likely that you, I, Mr. Taylor, etc. have probably read and studied the Bible far more than any of the "I KNOW the truth" group. It's also sad in many ways. It seems they believe, but do not have faith. Faith in something (whatever that may be) can keep a person going, give them comfort, make them feel loved and needed, etc. It is not something that can be proven; it is felt deep within you. For someone to claim they can PROVE what they have faith in has missed the whole point. Faith is the belief in that which cannot be proven. If it could be proven, then there would be no need to have faith in it.

Mr. Douglas, I hope you will always post here. I enjoy reading your posts. Most are very thought provoking. Some are pretty funny too!!!

Well, I didn't realize til now that conversing with Kajen was such a complete and utter waste of finger energy.

If I had never heard of christianity and stumbled on this thread, I still wouldn't have a clue as to why I should become a christian based on his comments. It's like cotton candy...alot of fluff, but when you chew it up it disappears. (and leaves your fingers sticky)

God's word should be able to stand up to any scrutiny that a person can throw at it. After all, if IS supposed to be the word of God. It appears that the only defense that god can have for those that feel that he hasn't given us enough proof that he is god is to just throw us all into hell. Nice.

If there is a god, and if he wants me to worship and serve him, I'll just wait for him/her/it to let me know himself. And if Jehova/Jesus are some kind of higher power, then I'm betting that there is an even higher power than that....has to be. Theres too much order and continuity to the universe for the god of the bible to be responsible for it all.

Kajen, you are amusing at first but after a few posts it turns out that you are just boring. I don't dislike you...I don't even know you. But yeah, you are just plain boring.

Ms. Kennedy, methinks you might be a Deist at heart. This man (if it IS a man) is kind of like the great boxer Muhammad Ali - he can't convince 'em with his trash talk so he baffles 'em with BS.

No, the questions I asked of him have not been answered - not by him or anyone else. They have NO logical answer to the question of why they leave out whole sections of their book, so they bad-mouth the questioners.

He even says he doubts my years of studying the book!!!!! The arrogance!!!!

He uses the old technique of "shuck and jive" - it don't mean nothin' but you just keep on doing the Ali "footwork" and saying strings of words that mean nothing.

How DARE this person question we who have spent literally decades doing our own version of the shuck and jive and say he "doubts" we have even read the book!!!!!

He and Mr. Starnes really believe it is acceptable to tell people to just shut up and to call people liars and insult their intelligence. Amazing!

Finally ... unless and until the people who host this forum ask me to please cease and desist, I WILL continue to post comments.

Mr. Kajen B, you totally missed my point.

A for-profit retail store is being praised for using a phrase that is used on our MONEY, as promoting Christian values. Giving a percentage of their profits to charity would be worthy of praise. It reminds me of Jim Bakker of some of these other TV preachers who convince people to contribute their hard earned money to buy the preacher all the niceties of the world, of course it's done in the name of God. They are using God to line their pockets and people are praising them for it.

It's similar to some on here. They are using God as an excuse to revile others. If you want to condemn others to hell, then do so in your own name. Don't claim God said it. Why does it bother you so much that some don't believe in God or, like me, believe in God but not the Bible? Are you like one of the salesmen in the store who has to meet a certain quota of reverted souls before you too can reach heaven?

He is not YOUR God; he is OUR God. You do not have a direct line to his thoughts, desires, etc.

According to American Policy Roundtable (n.d.), "If you don't know where you've come from, it's pretty hard to determine where you're going.

The history of America is an awesome drama. Our nation is no accident. For hundreds of years, the dream of liberty was carried across European history to be birthed on these shores, and biblical truth, biblical thinking, played a pivotal role in the birthing of America.

But was America founded on Christian principles? Just read the first words of the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

From the beginning, America's founders accepted the reality that basic rights were inseparable from human beings and they recognized that those inalienable rights were not given by government nor acquired by force, but that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the gifts of the Creator.

In 1844, the Court said, "Christianity is part of our common law."

In 1892, the Supreme Court said this: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national because this is a religious people. This is historically true."

In 1930, the U.S. Supreme Court said this: "We are a Christian people, according to our motto."

In 1952, the U.S. Supreme Court said, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.

The question isn't - Was America founded on Christian principles? The question is - what world view has given birth to and sustained America? The answer to that question is simple: Christianity.

Still not satisfied?

Beliefs of the Founding Fathers - Quotes from our Founding Fathers on Religion
Information gathered by the American Policy Roundtable

George Washington
Source - Christianity As An Influence On The Founding Fathers by John A. Sterling
Belief - Episcopalian

"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.




Thomas Jefferson
Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief - Episcopalian

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."




James Madison
Belief - Episcopalian

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785

"It is not the talking but the walking and working person that is the true Christian." In a manuscript on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison makes this statement.

"We have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations." March 4, 1809 Inaugural Address

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]




Benjamin Franklin
Belief - Episcopalian

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech




John Adams
Belief - Unitarian

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart”.



American Policy Roundtable. (n.d.). Rediscovering American History . Retrieved July 28, 2009, from http://www.aproundtable.org/issues.cfm?issuecode=history

Were these the same Christians who killed half or Eroupe in the name of God ?

Were they the same Christians who destoryed Alexandria and secreted all the things from the libarys Alexanfer the Great had built ?

Were they the same Christains who drove the world into the dark ages ?

Are we repaeting history ? How many millions of people need to be killed this time for God?

Sure gald my God does not call on me to hate others who belive in a different God.

Lana Kennedy,

Has the Hobby Lobby infringed upon your right by advertising as they did?

I thought not. So why does it bother you?

Explain that. Why does it bother you folks that they honor their God? If you don’t like it, don’t shop there. How is that so hard to understand?

I think the problem is you all feed off of this hatred of God, Christ and the Bible. You must find somewhere to vent about it. And you’ve been provided that forum.

That is the only reason imaginable as to why you all can’t leave it alone.

You have a problem with a store claiming “in God we trust” but I bet you have no problem spending money that has the same thing on it. Why?

Now that is funny, in a sick sort of way.

Mr. Douglas,

“Notice he/she still declines to answer the question about "would you punish your children for something your spouse did?"

I answered that question in two separate comments if you would care to read. By the way, you owe me a dollar. :) I thought you were done talking about it?

“the same wild-eyed fanatics come out of the woodwork spouting their strings of words until they all run together.”

Exactly sir, thus the reason I post. You all can’t leave it alone. You have just described your group.

“Anyway, earlier I posted a very carefully crafted comment with verses from the Old and New Testaments - history and law - and he/she just poo-pooed the entire comment, totally ignoring the parts from the NEW Testament, and glossing over everything with his/her usual flighty "oh, it's God's word. Just study study study. Blah blah blah."

Because your argument is the same and has been debated for years. It wasn’t won over the last two thousand years and can’t be won now. They are ridiculous claims. Why should I bother when the only reason you ask is because you, and a few others, think they are viable arguments and they are not. They are childish at best. And as well, you know that there really isn’t enough space in this venue to address them all as they should be. You’re not fooling anybody but you and this group whose ears you tickle with all the mumbo-jumbo you spout.

“WHY do we even respond to him/her?????”

Because you can’t stop. You are so afraid that you are wrong that you will go to any length to prove otherwise.

And I’m doubting your claim of years of study. Anyone who has studied, especially those verses you keep in your back pocket that you think prove your case, should know more about them.

I’ll be waiting for my dollar.

Like Mr. Douglas stated, those of us here with whom you disagree, Mr. Kajen, have studied many years of the book you base your life upon. We know what the book says. We've also heard every preacher's possible spin, or "understanding" of the words. Trying to prove some point to those who have been through the wash is silly. The questions asked of your beliefs here are coming from those who have formed their own doubts and disbelief, after many years of blindly following christianity. You dismiss them as coming from folks who know nothing of your book and your indoctrination, yet you truly know you cannot answer them without blaspheming your own god. See, that's the little trick. Like Ive said in previous posts, tell the sheep that doubt, rationale and logic is blasphemy, you've got them for life. If only the poor sand people could see what they've created, world-wide, through simple texts that humanity has taken for the literal handwriting of a mega-god (well, you know, god writing through men, or something to that effect.)

Does anyone know why fast food places advertise toys in the kids meals? Yep, to get kids to want to come there and spend their parents' money. Hobby Lobby has one up on them. Throw out an ad with a religious saying in the Bible belt (a saying that is associated far more with MONEY than any religious material). Not only do you drum up more business, but you get free advertising via the editorial page. So funny!!

Notice he/she still declines to answer the question about "would you punish your children for something your spouse did?"

Of course. Perhaps he/she works writing speeches for the other person who can string together nonsensical words until your ears bleed - Palin.

Fact is, there is absolutely nothing in the world wrong with people's religion. It is thrust into our faces - newspapers, internet, radio, TV, riding down the road and passing dozens, hundreds, thousands of churches - until we are suffering from overkill.

No one wants to ship it back across the Atlantic. It's just TOO MUCH in-your-face jibber jabber.

Look at the history of comments on this one forum alone - the KTN forum. Every time some mention is made of religion, the same wild-eyed fanatics come out of the woodwork spouting their strings of words until they all run together.

Nothing means anything because they contradict themselves and their nonsense is so transparent it cannot stand the light of day.

The one book (you know? the one written by God, but, there's no real book of God?) has been translated, and retranslated and trans-translated and there are so many hundreds - if not thousands - of denominations ... that one book has caused so much grief and misunderstanding and confusion and ... and ... so many other bad things.

Sorry. Trying to sound like he/she, but it just ain't working.

Anyway, earlier I posted a very carefully crafted comment with verses from the Old and New Testaments - history and law - and he/she just poo-pooed the entire comment, totally ignoring the parts from the NEW Testament, and glossing over everything with his/her usual flighty "oh, it's God's word. Just study study study. Blah blah blah."

Thing is, in all the years I was studying for the ministry, I missed all the stuff he/she seems to be privy to - and he/she then states flat out that I - and others here who also spent years in study - know nothing, and only he/she knows it all - knows all the mysteries of the book - knows all the magic. We - those of us who spent years studying studying studying - aren't special enough. He/she is the only one who REALLY knows.

Give me a break!

WHY do we even respond to him/her?????

Back to the article…

More businesses need to follow suit. It is nice to see some still knowing that it is in God we should trust and not man and especially those men who think they are gods.

People came here seeking religious freedoms. So many today want all religious freedoms bottled up and shipped back across the Atlantic. Guess what folks; God’s people are here to stay. Get used to it.

So the pattern here is clear: "Still not worth responding to" is the equivalent of "lacking any knowledge."

Play your games with whoever will listen to the nonsense. Bring it here, get called out and questioned on your beliefs, and clam up. Thats a pretty regular occurrence here anymore.

Sorry for all of the typos. I’m in a hurry to go shake some snakes and it is way past my bedtime.

Mr. Walker,

“Kajen, you've proved my point exactly, again. No where in the bible does it state that law, rules or commandments were for a specific time and place or culture.”

Apparently you haven’t read and therefore cannot speak intelligently about the book you despise. All you have to do is read it. The only people molding the bible as you say, are those like you who seem for some reason to fear it. I don’t know, I’m assuming that is why you try your best to manipulate it. If not, you tell me.

The reason for our existence is to bring glory to God, on His terms not ours. That what He reveals to us in His Word. That is why His son was tortured and humiliated and ultimately died in this world. For you. Yet you spit in His face with your I know better than God attitude. I guess you think you can save the world? Pride is ugly. Pride kills from the inside out.

Show me where I said salvation is simple. Have you ever read what had to transpire for salvation to be offered? Not so simple.

You’ll have to ask those who fuss over the Laws why they do. Like I said, Christians live by faith.

I’ve never cast out devils, I’ve never healed the sick. But God has secured me Mr. Walker. He says so in His Word. And unlike all of those false gods, the true God doesn’t lie.

Mr. Taylor,

Still not worth responding to. Thanks for proving my position yet again.

Sorry, Mr. Dude.

Mr. Dissident,

Are you delusional? You, if bothering to read my posts should see I’m living life to the fullest. Rather than placing myself above the Master Strategist, I bow to His awesome presence.

It takes a bigger man to admit when he is wrong sometoimes. I did it 12 years ago. When are you going to?

Kajen, you've proved my point exactly, again. No where in the bible does it state that law, rules or commandments were for a specific time and place or culture. Whose interpretation is telling you that this is so? Yours? Pat Roberston?

Again, there is no absolute even on this simple little topic. There are plenty of fundamentalists out there that still believe that women cutting their hair is against god's will...so are they off their rockers for believing such?

If you say that it's their own interpretation then fine. If you have your own interpretation that's fine. If scholars believe that certain commandments shouldn't be adhered to because of this or that - fine. BUT, it puts a nice fine point on the fact that still, everyone just molds the bible into their own little 'mini religion'. I did study, study, study...like millions of other people, and that isn't the answer either. I'm sure that every denomination that has formed has studied until they were blue in the face and decided to start their own little gig...and whose to say that one denomination is more right than the next? After centuries of contemplation and prayer and fasting and studying, no one is closer to knowing what is absolute truth is than they did when they started. They are just convinced of their own understanding.

And if the bible is the only way to know god, then it's a pretty pathetic 'way'. And for those people that aren't able to study study study or comprehend such a gaum as the bible, then what's gods answer for them? - Go and listen to the preacher and follow what he says?

No.

There has to be another explanation as to our existance other than what you or the bible says.

If you say that salvation is so simple a child could understand, then why all the discord, denominations, interpretations etc? It's not simple. It's a mess. If all it takes is to believe on Jesus Christ, then why all the crap about the laws and commandments that people fuss over all the time? Either it's important or it's not. And finally, the bible does say that if you add one word to or take one word away then your part will be taken out of the book of life.

So, go ahead and take away as much as you like, but if the bible is true, then you and millions of others will not be living the good life when you die. You might well be one of those that cast out devils, healed the sick in his name, and then he tells you to depart from him because he never knew you in the first place.

And that's a whole other topic on it's own.

"My entire point of joining this conversation was to see why many of you feel so threatened." What a crock.

Threatened? That's the arrogance coming through there, Kajen. Absolutely sick of the idiocy that protrudes from the effects of religion on our everyday life in this country? Absolutely.
The total arrogance of your posts here make me agree in full with Mr. Walker, in the sense of never being happier with my life now that Ive gotten away from the mess of religion. Your twisted words here never respond to anyone's valid questions, its all a loop of neverending meaningless garble, of which youve simply heard and repeated.

Mr. Walker, your analogy of the "flea" is something Ive always wondered. If one can take their head out of their a@! time enough to attempt to grasp the vastness in which we exist in the universe, all of the silly gods who exist in mythology become irrelevant. I'm not opposed to a greater being, but I am soundly opposed to such silly fantasies, created by men, being purported as some sort of truth. If their is a creator of any sort, it must be sick to no end watching these people twist all logic and reasoning to justify their own existence. I sure am.

Didn't you hear the news?....


Thou shalt not take The Dude thy Lord's name in vain?

Word!?!?!?

I just have one question...


Who are all you people callin' "Dude"?

Kagen please, do you read the ridiculous "stuff" you post? If you don't, then don't bother. It's all fairy tales and xmas decorations. I know it's hard to see past the brainwashing, the bible verses, the guilt and low self esteem that xtianity is based upon, but don't despair. Most of your fellow club members realize it too, they're just like you and too proud to admit that their reason for living is pure, unadulterated B period space S period. If you ever do grow up and decide the lie is too much to bear, I'm sure the moonies will still be offering cut-rate memberships. Enjoy!

And to all who feel I am dodging questions…

My entire point of joining this conversation was to see why many of you feel so threatened.

Mr. Johnson sent a note to show support for a business he felt was doing the right thing. And then, like vultures coming after a carcass you all attack him and his opinion. I guess his free speech should be suppressed when it doesn’t jive with yours. Same ole story, same ole song and dance.

Those who think they are gods have the only opinions that matter.

I’m really glad to see you all confined to the behind the scenes action and not out spewing that stuff in public. Of course, that’s just my opinion. I’d rather see the hatred confined to this venue.

Mr. Taylor,

Still not worth responding to? :)

I just don't feel it dude.

You ask:

“How is a person to know when something is said as an example to learn from verses something that needs to be headed word for word?”

Study, Study, Study.

I don’t take what I want. I take it all into consideration, scripture upon scripture. I learn. I study and learn some more. It’s not about what I think it’s about what God says.

The hair thing, please Mr. Walker. Sometimes things are for a specific audience, a time or a dispensations or as I think more aptly the covenants. The only way your questions will be answered in full is for you to study and want to know. Again, I’m simply human and am limited in abilities. God however is not.

Regarding that specific teaching, it was for a particular audience or church based on local custom. See as Christians, we are taught not to offend. If that be the local custom, it shuld be upheld by those currently present and those who visit. How we say in the secular world, when in Rome… It’s a teaching to not be offensive. The Apostle points out as well, that it is for a woman’s glory to have long hair in that particular venue. Can we move on?

Every argument you can present has been refuted time and time again. I think it beneficial for you to study for yourself than to rely on me. I’ll surely err at some point because I am a simple man.

Eric, well said with this Kajen 'dude'...pumping out sentence after sentence and not really saying anything at all.

The best thing that these commentaries do for me is to make me realize, all over again, why I turned and ran the other direction. So I guess I should be thanking all these people on here. I've never been happier.

I'm beginning to think that who ever god is, if there is one, has left us all here to try and figure it out on our own, to experience life, make our own choices and learn from the whole experience. Otherwise, if it were so important to follow a book of rules 'he' would have come up with something that is timeless, errorless, non contradictory (if that's a word) and simple enough that a child could understand.

Just trying to explain the trinity, which I never believed in, takes such mental acrobatics that even theologians have trouble explaining it to every day common folks.

The very absense of proof/truth as to who or where we came from leads me to believe that life is what you yourself make of it and the truth for each of us lies within our own hearts.

As far as any of us knows, our whole universe could just be a smaller part of something much bigger than what we can see....like being a flea biting around on the back of an old hound dog...not knowing there's much more to life than a smelly dog, hair and an occasional toenail trying to scratch us out of existance.

lana Kennedy,

See Matthew 22:36 - 40.

This sums up the everlasting Moral Law for the Christian.

So Kajen has now been questioned on the validity of many points of his "inerrant" bible, and has chosen to avoid all attempts at explanation. This kid can type paragraph after paragraph and say absolutely nothing.

Its time to step away again, this is only gonna get more tough. The man behind the curtain becomes more clear with each question dodged, or responded with "dude, you can't just read the bible, you gotta feel it, man."

Kajen,

You summed it up nicely. I think you are pretty much saying that God should not be questioned because we serve him, not him serving us...That's the whole point. Who wants to serve a god like that? i left the church 8 years ago and he hasn't come after me with a lightning bolt yet...I'm sure because the real higher power isn't that concerned.

As for getting out of the old testiment, fine. But that doesn't take away the fact that those attributes of Jehovah are there, and as he says...."I am god and I change not"....

As for bringing it all to the new testiment....you haven't responded to my first post about those things I mentioned there....issues that are outdated, that no christian these days feels are important.

And again, the real point to all of this is that you are using a book that is open to so much interpretation and 'faith' that any person can make it say or do just about anything they want...How is a person to know when something is said as an example to learn from verses something that needs to be headed word for word? He should just say in those cases...'this is a story that you should learn from, and THIS is a commandment that you must follow".

But people, just like yourself, will take what they want, leave the rest and then start preaching about how gods word should be obeyed. Again, it's a mess and I can't fathom that a real true god would leave such a confusing, ill conceived book, that all of humanity hinges their fate on, as a record of how to make it into heaven and have eternal life.

The new testiment says that women should not cut their hair unless it's shorn off or unless they wear a covering....how many christians, including yourself follow that one simple commandment?

If I had the time I would indeed post all of the things like that, but then based on the style of your responses thus far, you wouldn't bother to reply to them. But, you can enlighten me if you wish. I am sincerely curious.

I am curious. What are the two commandments that sum up the original 10?

Answer is no, and God wouldn’t either. Do I really even need to respond to that? Are you that desperate??

Old arguments lost years ago. How many more times will they pop up?

Not everything is a test for us. Not everything is an instruction for us. Sometimes we need to use it as an example. Sometimes we need to learn from it. The story of Abraham demonstrates faith at its purest. What else do you want to hear?

Concerning the flood, God is God and not a respecter of persons. We answer to Him, not Him to us. Again, poor argument not worth arguing anymore.

Here is the thing; you think there are good people. There is not. God punished nobody for someone else’s sin because the fact of the matter is, we all sin. Yep, everyone of us and that deserves death. But the gracious and loving God has willed to save some from that eternal death. Sin is in our nature which is what we inherited from our first parents. That nature, not their actual sin. Geesh, it’s not that hard to understand.

You see hatred and a murderous mean God because that is what you choose to see. God is love man. Pure love and if you would take the time to get to know Him through His word, maybe He would will that you see that.

What else do want from me? I’m an imperfect sinning mortal who needs a savior. Your answers aren’t with me, they are with the One who has all the answers and believe it or not, it is nobody on this forum. Yes including Mr. Douglas.

BTW, we have only two commandments that sum up the original 10. But, they no longer enslave us like they once did. Faith sets us free from the yoke of the law.

Mr. Douglas, please. Do you read the ridiculous stuff you post? You’re blind to the truth are you deaf as well? Dollar says that was not your last word like you said.

I didn’t dodge any question as you claim. It was rather a stupid question to be blunt. Why would I punish anyone for something they did not do? And before you claim that God has, it was only one, His Son, and out of love for us.

I believe you have made the claim to have read scripture. I’m going to have to call you out. With the crazy accusation you make, there is no way you have sat down, read, studied and attempted to understand Scripture. Oh, you’ve read some I’m sure but only to make a poor attempt at showing contradiction. Guess what, you as they have the others have failed miserably.“


I parrot what someone else has told me??? Sometimes, but why fix it if it isn’t broken.


First off, get out of the Old Testament. You don’t understand it and won’t until you view it in light of the New. Understand what the shadows and Laws of the OT actually pointed to.

I won’t go down your list of Scripture. Much better men than me have discredited those very arguments for years. Who is a parrot now? :) If that is all you have, the same old worthless arguments, you’re just killing everyone’s time. They were weak then and are weaker even now. Laughable at best.

I don’t get your argument about slavery? Have you read Philemon? NOOO.

Slavery was an acceptable custom and slaves were to be treated with love. You really need to put more effort into studying and understanding.

And for the record, if you are against God’s fan club as you say it, you are against God. No gray area there to hide in Mr. Douglas.


Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.


Continue to prove my point sir that you know better than God. Thank you.

Mr. Starnes, who do you think you are to tell me to shut up? You are the one on here portraying God as some mean, control freak who has no qualms about killing anyone who would dare not do exactly as he wants. One who would and has killed innocent children because some adults didn't do exactly as he wanted.

The God I feel in my heart is kind and loving. A role model for each of us. The epitome of what is, could, and should be good in this world.

I hope that you will go back and read the story of Judas' betrayal in your Bible. The story has a very good moral to it. Judas actually had more faith in Jesus than any of the other disciples, but they all condemned him. Their condemnation of what they could not see (understand) forced Judas to loose faith.

Now, would your version of God praise Judas for his faith or the disciples for condeming what THEY thought was betrayal?

Kajen,

It's hard to fathom that you take such a stand on issues like this. If Jehovah were to make himself known today, like allegedly he did back then we would think that Hitler was the saint.

Oh and nice way to dodge the issue by informing me you are a man instead of a woman...but the question still stands.

Beside slavery and all that, god also commanded to stone your children if they are disobedient, in some cases kill innocent men, women and children and animlas so his precious Israel could conquer the land. He is jealous, angry and seemingly just toys with his subjects to garner more worship and servitude, such as telling abraham to kill is only son - just to see if his faith was substantial enough. (If he was really god he would know abrahams heart already)

He also destroyed the whole earth by a flood, when only a very small minority even knew anything about it. Sure, Noah preached about it, but what about all the untold millions of people on the other side of the world that never knew that Noah or Jehovah existed...guess they were just born in the wrong place.

He destoyed the whole city of S&G, even the women and children....gosh, it just goes on and on. Jehovah is not a nice person...if he does exist as the bible says.

And what's up with punishing all of humanity because of what Eve did in the garden. If he's god, then why the heck does he make such stupid rules as to throw the whole human race into sin. Why not just put Eve to death, as he did so many others in the bible for lesser sins.

His 'ways' are so hateful, unfair and full of fear that it's not hard to see through it all once you get past the brainwashing that religion puts a person through.

I don't have the time or energy to look up every verse that spells all of this out. Obviously, if you're a scholar of the word then you already know the passages, and them some.

It's funny how you didn't really respond to any of the comments I made from the new testiment....how many of those 'commandments' and verses to you abide by today?

You really aren't doing yourself any justice or your religion by just glossing over the issues with your broad sweeping comments of how the bible is inerrant and the complete word of god with no contradictions. If you're so grounded in the word then why not show some of us here how you explain away all of these things that are no longer considered important or relevant for the day we live in....And regarding those things, explain how you can overlook such issues when the bible teaches you to follow every word.

I've asked it over and over again and as far as I can see, no one can really step up to the plate and justify their position by the very bible they cling to so strongly.

That would be worth taking the time to read, just for the sake of amusement.

Oliver, thanks for the post. I'm a little rusty on all the scripture stuff, but I know it's there!

“Would you punish your child for a sin that your husband committed?” You have a wife, not a husband, so you dodged (not artfully) that question.

Here it is rewritten: Would you punish your child for a sin your wife committed?

"Hold it to the light of Scripture."

Biggest pile of stinkin' adult male bovine excrement I've seen yet. Means absolutely NOTHING! YOU don't even know what it means! You simply parrot something someone else has told you.

For instance, if you want to know even one or two of the hundreds of things that bother me, start with the old testament:

Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

The Bible doesn't recognize the slave male or female as a normal human being. If the master beats his servant to death, then the master will not get the death punishment or penalty. He will only be punished, but not to death. One whip strike could be sufficient.

Exodus 23:12 "Six days do your work, but on the seventh day do not work, so that your ox and your donkey may rest and the slave born in your household, and the alien as well, may be refreshed."

The slave and the animal have the same value. A human slave in the Bible is an animal and not a human being (just like the slaves owned in the US were not really human - they were part human, part animal).

This verse puts the animals and the slave in the same category. It doesn't separate them. You okay with that? Is that one of the verses you prefer to ignore?

An animal has MORE value than a human slave: Exodus 21:28-32 "If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible."

"If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death."

"This law also applies if the bull gores a son or daughter."

"If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull must be stoned. (but not to death)."

Again, proof that the writers of the bible reflect that human slaves are not as valuable as animals.

Lest you think all this stuff is just in the old testament, here are some other instances from the new testament:

1 Timothy 6:1 "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered."

Matthew 10:24 "A student is not greater than the teacher. A slave is not greater than the master."

1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Colossians 3:22 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

If you want some more instances from the Bible that indicate YOUR people ignore big chunks of the Bible, I'll gladly oblige. Just say the word.

Here's my final word: I have nothing against God. It's his fan club I can't stand.

Mr. Taylor,

Since I believe it to be a practical question, I’ll answer. I’ve been a believer for about 12 years now. Prior to that I “claimed” agnosticism, atheism and many other ism’s before God decided to call me.

Mr. Walker,

“I'm quite sure that by your own 'christian' standards that I can show you how Jehovah , the father, transgresses most of them, and he's your own 'god'.”

Show away. That’s an undertaking many have attempted for thousands of years. I hope your ready for the challenge, because I know of some pretty intelligent individuals who proved themselves foolish in trying to do so.

“Would you punish your child for a sin that your husband committed?”

Sorry to inform you, I don’t have a husband but rather a loving better half of me wife.

“....(read the old testiment if you don't know what i mean)”

I’ve studied old and new for some years now and you simple do not hold God in the light He alone deserves to be held. Again, we humans always know better than an omnipotent, omniscient God.

“If the bible is so cohesive and reliable then why are there so many interpretations of it?”

Uh, I explained that, apparently you didn’t take the time or the consideration to read.

…”what do you do when the two beliefs are in opposition about the same thing?”

Hold it to the light of Scripture.

…”how is one to know that their particular revelation of the bible is correct?”

See above.

“The new testiments commands that women keep silent in the church, to make the man as the head of the house, women shouldn't wear pearls, braid their hair, be in submission...slaves be obedient to their masters, shun those that don't repent to shame them into repentance, men be the husband of one wife, don't work on the sabbath, be baptized in the name of the lord Jesus christ...I could go on and on...the point is that there are scads of commandments from the bible that people just ignore these days..” (sic)

You can’t take one part of Scripture and build a doctrine. You must take it all into consideration.

Scripture is more than just commands. It is used to reproof, teach, give example and much more. However, you’ll only see what you want to see because you look upon it with an already hardened heart.

Kajen says..."God’s Word has only one interpretation. The Bible upholds itself. There are however many applications to which we utilize the Word. If any action in question cannot stand in the light of God’s Word, then that action was not brought about by the Holy Spirit but rather man’s own wickedness...."

Well, now we're getting somewhere...so there is only ONE true interpretation of gods word...that makes sense. AND, if that's so, then whose interpretation is right? What good is god's word if it can be interpreted is so many different ways. There is NO absolute when it comes to this. The bible is written is such a fashion that you can have a 100 different interpretations of one topic and no proof as to which one is right. That doesn't sound like a very good road map of how a person is supposed to live.

I'm quite sure that by your own 'christian' standards that I can show you how Jehovah , the father, transgresses most of them, and he's your own 'god'.

The whole point is that there is nothing remotely reliable about the bible and what it teaches as truth because there is no way to tell if what you believe about it is actually what god meant or not. I'm quite sure that whoever god may be, he's got a much better plan than christianity for helping mankind through a bad hump.

And really, god's gonna blame me for the sin that Eve committed back in the garden??? Would you punish your child for a sin that your husband committed? Doesn't make a lick of sense when you're talkiing about the god of all creation being so narrow minded and unfair.

God is much much bigger than anything thing that I've seen in any religion. I expect the god of all creation to be alot more like god and nothing at all like a big, spoiled bully with too much power on his hands....(read the old testiment if you don't know what i mean)

That is some serious, deep indoctrination there, Kajen. You have a decent grasp of grammar and language, yet cannot create a comment or paragraph void of fantasy. There is no rational discussion here. When one falls too deep into one of the many thousands of religions, he eventually is unable to distinguish the true reality from what his mind has formed into his own reality.

See, I could read the Harry Potter books religiously and repetitiously, and attempt to carry a conversation to which all things revert back to my belief in the magic, just as you do so with your bible.

I do have one question, have you been indoctrinated from birth, or are you a new recruit?

kajen,

Well, who told you that people aren't inherently good? Again, you must be hanging with the wrong crowd. Just because the bible says that mankind is evil and wicked doesn't make it so. Is that what you mean? The BIBLE says that all men are wicked? Please tell me it's not so.

You say...."The Bible you speak of is the most cohesive and only reliable source of information we have concerning God’s will. The only errors, contradictions and multiple interpretations you speak of were invented by folks who don’t want to believe. They have to discredit God’s Word to make a viable counter perspective. But for nearly 2000 years now, that hasn’t happened. God’s true Word, the original autographs are infallible. Man has mucked it up over the years but God will preserve, He will always have His remnant...."

If the bible is so cohesive and reliable then why are there so many interpretations of it? How do you account for there being so many different opinions as to what it means? Every christian is gonna say that what he/she believes is what god has revealed to them, but what do you do when the two beliefs are in opposition about the same thing? That's why there's so many denominations...and to further that, how is one to know that their particular revelation of the bible is correct? The new testiments commands that women keep silent in the church, to make the man as the head of the house, women shouldn't wear pearls, braid their hair, be in submission...slaves be obedient to their masters, shun those that don't repent to shame them into repentance, men be the husband of one wife, don't work on the sabbath, be baptized in the name of the lord Jesus christ...I could go on and on...the point is that there are scads of commandments from the bible that people just ignore these days..I"m sure you have some loophole in your faith that allows you to overlook scriptures like these....and if there aren't any loopholes then why do the christians of today feel that these things don't apply? God says that he changes not, so obviously he still feels the same way about it today as he did when it was written 2000 years ago.

Ahhh, Mr. Douglas. :)

Still looking for the book of God. Still haven't found it. Sigh.

First things first, we don’t live by rules per se but rather by faith. That faith does not require anything but the grace of God.

Who’s controlling me? I am free to live my life to the fullest. I’m not bound by anything from man permanently, only temporarily, and within reason. In season, man’s rule and law has its purpose but even that is still commissioned by God. You simply choose not to see divine providence and you are so permitted. But know this, at any point and time according to His purpose and will, if He wanted you to see, you would and maybe still will.


God doesn’t control me as you view control. It is my pleasure to do his will. It is also my problem when I don’t.

Our Bible tells us that we are all equal before the cross of Christ. We have roles in this life to keep peace and to be productive in God’s creation but concerning our status before God, we are equal.

Rather than being enslaved to our sin and immorality, we have been given grace and set free through Christ. God tells us everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. This shows that it is not ourselves who determine our destiny, but God through His grace. We are simply jars of clay, made by the potter for His use.


Not everyone is meant to “join” as you say. God does not need us for Him to be glorified. He’ll glorify Himself by saving us eternally and showing His grace, or by condemning us throughhis Justice.

Do you fear damnation? I do not. Why would you fear damnation if you don’t believe?


We are not running anything that hasn’t been ordained or allowed by God. Again, that’s the problem, we think we are running things, we think we know better. Guess what, that isn’t happening.

“Control a society. Are you serious? “
Yes, I am serious. If you are an xtian, you are submitting to rules written ages ago with little to no application or sensibility to today's world. You are being controlled based not on your needs and wants as a human individual, but on someone else's idea of what you should do and be.


“Who's controlling anyone here?”
By your own admission, you are controlled by your god.

“Christianity promotes civil obedience.“
I agree, xtianity provides for common sense in many areas but that doesn't mean that it's required for a civil society. Obedience is certainly a central focus of xtianity or any religion.

“Christianity promotes freedom. Christianity promotes morality.”
You'll have to explain both those to me. I don't agree on either point. If anything, xtianity promotes a strict leader/follower social mode where personal freedom could be considered sinful. The morality argument is much clearer. The bible defines immorality. It does nothing to promote it and in some cases (S and G) even destroys morality.

“Christianity above and beyond most of the world's religions promotes equality among the races and sexes.”
In purpose perhaps, in practice you'll have to agree, xtianity is one of the most exclusive religions in the world. Sure, anyone can join, if you'll just follow me, right?

“How is that controlling?”
See above.

“My goodness, fear??? Fear of what? Damnation?”
Of course damnation. Are you not afraid of hell? Have you never heard Fear the lord thy god? Who do you think the bogey-man is, oh, right, Jim Carey?

“ The only fear we should be considering is what would actually happe to this world should the sovereign God decide to pull His hand out and let us run it ourselves. “
Ummmm, don't look now, but much as you argue otherwise, we are running things ourselves.

Control a society. Are you serious? I thought you lived stateside… Who’s controlling anyone here?

Christianity promotes civil obedience. Christianity promotes freedom. Christianity promotes morality. Christianity above and beyond most of the world’s religions promotes equality among the races and sexes. How is that controlling?

My goodness, fear??? Fear of what? Damnation? The only fear we should be considering is what would actually happen to this world should the sovereign God decide to pull His hand out and let us run it ourselves. Chaos, total chaos…

Ever watch Bruce Almighty? A funny but probably poor attempt to show how naive we are in thinking we can handle things on our own.

Ok, if that works for you, fine, but I and others will continue to believe and look forward to a growing sentiment of agreement with the reality that religious beliefs in general and specifically the evangelical born-again variety which permeates our region, are dangerous, archaic fantasies supported only by those who need and use fear to function as, and control a society.

Mr. Dissident,

You and words like that continue to prove one of my points. You must demoralize, discredit and belittle any who believe so you can look like the intelligent know-it-all. That is the gist of the problem. You know better than God.

Keep speaking because believe or not, they see through your disguise.

Mr. Walker,

People are not inherently good. That’s the lie that is believed. We are not good. Only God is good.

People don’t need religion, they needs rescued from their wickedness. They need a Savior.

Christians aren’t to elevate themselves to any level. In fact, a Christian should hang his head in humility and give all the glory to his creator. Nothing we do, no matter how good you think it is can never atone for our depravity. Christians should put everyone else before themselves, how is that elevating?

The Bible you speak of is the most cohesive and only reliable source of information we have concerning God’s will. The only errors, contradictions and multiple interpretations you speak of were invented by folks who don’t want to believe. They have to discredit God’s Word to make a viable counter perspective. But for nearly 2000 years now, that hasn’t happened. God’s true Word, the original autographs are infallible. Man has mucked it up over the years but God will preserve, He will always have His remnant.

God has made it clear what His terms are; Faith in His Son who atoned for our depravity. The preachers you speak of are men, they are fallible and do error, but God is clear. We are not to put our faith in any man, preacher, pastor, priest, or whatever title you bestow upon them. Our faith is to be only in one place, Jesus Christ.

God’s Word has only one interpretation. The Bible upholds itself. There are however many applications to which we utilize the Word. If any action in question cannot stand in the light of God’s Word, then that action was not brought about by the Holy Spirit but rather man’s own wickedness.

It’s only a mess when man makes his convoluted attempt to discredit God and His revelation to us.

It is the clearest path there is when we view it properly.

Kajen,

Wow. You just haven't been hanging around the right people from what it sounds like. Since I left christianity I have found out that the world ISN'T such a big bad place, and people of all walks and beliefs are good at heart, for the most part, as well, regardless of whether they believe in christianity or not.

I think it's highly possible that the ones that need religion, that feel that it's the only way to redeem themselves, are the ones that have the evil, blackened hearts and all that other gook you mentioned.

When I left the church I certianly didn't leave my moral convictions at the front door, and I'm more concerned now about my fellow man than I was the whole time I was in church...mainly because I do see us all as no better or worse.

Christianity, though it has some good ideas, is really nothing more than a catalyst for judgement, condemnation and a bed for people to lay in while they look at everyone else that doesn't believe as sinners, that are hell bound and immoral, while they are on the yellow brick road to glory. Once you become a christian, you suddenly put yourself on a pedistal to where anyone else that doesn't follow you are to be pitied, preached to and looked down on if they don't believe. Once you start believing in it, by default you are brainwashing yourself into a mindset that everything else besides your beliefs are to be discarded.

And I don't mind to post, yet again, like alot of others on here, the question of how can you determine what the 'truth' of the 'word' is for this day when the masses of christianity have picked it apart like road kill trying to figure out what parts they can live by and what parts were for another day. None of the christians on here can really answer that. Again, if the bible is the most important set of books that mankind has to help him understand the will of god, then why the heck is it riddled with erros and contridictions, open to zillions of interpretations and no concrete proof as to who wrote it, no eye witness accounts etc.

I would think that the almighty god, if he did care about the salvation of a lost humanity, would make it clear as to what his terms were for salvation....and NOT a system set up where the preachers/prophets and apostles have to chew it up and spit back into our mouths.

If your holy spirit leads you to believe one thing, then what do you say about someone else who says that the holy spirit lead them in a total different direction - when it comes to interpretation of god word....

It's all just a big, fat, ugly mess.

Comments such as the last by Kajen B. are excellent examples why the practice and acceptance of tribal belief systems such as xtianity should be considered significantly advanced mental illness driven by mob mentality and fear. "our wicked nature, our depravity, our hearts are the catalyst for the wickedness, enslaved by our blackened hearts".


This is brainwashing at it's most effective, and it is sickness.

Brother Early,

The problem isn’t who has and who has not concerning ethics. The problem is our wicked nature. Out of our depravity arises the problem. We all have our moments when we think what we do is good and justifiable and that we are doing the right thing. Problem is we’re not here to glorify ourselves or any other man.

Our hearts are the catalyst for the wickedness we perpetrate against all that is holy. The truth is, it blinds us. It makes us believe we are righteous or good. It lies to us and we want to believe it so we do, because it is so easy to believe the lie.

Until the blinders are removed, we’ll never know the truth. And oddly, once they are removed, one sees how much easier it really is living in the light of the truth and no longer being enslaved by our blackened hearts.

I would like to not bother you all with this dilemma but as I see it, you all are the ones who can’t leave it alone. You attack in groups anyone who promotes godliness. That in itself seems indicative of a group who wants nothing more but to suppress the truth. Otherwise, why attack the writer of this article? He and what the store actually did are not infringing upon your rights in any way shape or form. Don’t shop there if you don’t like what they do. It is that simple. But you all must attack and belittle and degrade any who support this type action simply because why? Because you’re afraid of the truth? That’s the only logical answer to the question. Otherwise why should you care?

Hey Kajen B, some of us don't need the threat of a big invisible boogie man in the sky to have strong ethics. You go on and believe you're man made mythology but leave the rest of us out of it.

People deny your god and your religion because it is a primitive fantasy. Just the same as you deny all other gods and religions.

As far as your problems with being "insulted", I find no need in trying to "soften" my opinions of your mythic belief system. Just as you have no qualms about asserting your faulty belief in the god of the bible as some sort of "truth."

People deny God and religion simply because they choose to not want to have to answer for their actions to anyone other than themselves.

This is simply a byproduct of our fallen nature, total depravity. It proves itself time and time again. The very reason our Savior suffered on our behalf.

Accept it or not, it doesn’t change anything.

Fact of the matter is we'll all answer someday.

Mr. Taylor, still not worth responding to I guess so I'll just say this, I left the last round of conversation because I was done with it.

See I can do that, decide for myself when and when not to engage in fruitless conversation.

Although I'll say this, I learned much from my last round, not due to any input from you but rather others who can make sense without being insulting, neither of which you seem capable of doing.

So again, I'll choose not to engage you. Go talk to your sidewalks. I say it before you, you already are...

I dunno , Kajen, what does that say about my intellect? As I recall, you left the last round of these conversations due to a lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Would you like to try again?

"Like Ive said, attempting any rational conversation with this primitive being is like trying to debate the sidewalk."

But yet you won't stop. What does that say about your intellect?

Chase Lyons,

It does say “not founded on the Christian Religion”...

That does not exclude Christian principles however. Funny how we add or remove context to make something say what we want it to say.

There is also some doubt as to whether article 11 of the treaty has been correctly translated.

Look into it.

The way Mr. Starnes attacks me you would think I was an atheist!!! I have said I believe in God, but not the Bible. He responds with string after string of name calling, ridicule, inane responses, telling me to shut up, etc. He states the way to salvation is to accept God, yet he condemns me to hell because I only accept God and not the Bible. Mr. Starnes, your treatment of me alone seems to indicate you are worshiping the words of the Bible more so than God. Think what you want, but I can assure you that I have lived my life in a far better way than many who claim to be saved Christians. Actions speak far louder than words. You sir, are NOT God. YOU do not decide who God approves of. The image you portray of God is blasphemy. I hope you can look into your heart and replace all that hate and arrogance with love and understanding.

"You should consider drinking some. Spew more lies, temper, Temper. Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ah, the words of a true prophet. Jesus is so proud.

Oh, let Ronnie go on worshiping his Summerian god of war. Well, at least the parts of the myth he likes to use for justification. I don't pay any attention to his rambling anymore.

Congratulations Starnes. You have at least one thing in common with your mythical jesus. You're both frauds.

'well, honestly, I don't think the christians really know what truth is. There probably isn't any single two christians that actually agree 100% as to what the truth of the bible is....And the reason for that is because the bible isn't based on truth, but on faith.

If there was any real truth to christianity, then there wouldn't be any room for so much debate on what the heck it all means.

For most religious people, truth is relative...just depends on what you believe in.

Ronnie,
First off, I don’t lie, since I was old enough to think for myself, that’s been my FIRST rule. I will admit for the sake of honesty that I am sometimes mistaken. As for hate, the only hatred that I carry is that for idiots who refuse to examine and determine for themselves whether commonly held mythos are true and correct, whether they are meant as parables to make a point about behavior, or whether they are false posturing of a three thousand year old cult started by ignorant sheep herders in the desert night who wanted to be seen as prophets.
Also, BY DEFFINITION, knowledge is "known fact" and facts: yeah, you have to have proof to have facts... otherwise they're not facts they are what? wait for it.... wait for it... BELIEFS.
Brings us back to: SUPERSTITION. And unless you can show that "knowing in your heart that it's true" is a form of a SCIENTIFIC PROOF, you're going to loose many more people from your cult than you'll ever win over. Let me guess, you probably believe the world is only 6,000 years old too don't you, no matter what all the SICENTIFIC EVIDENCE shows.
I would try to make an intelligent and concise response to your insults and belittlement, but it wouldn't do any good. You're an effin moron, your CULT has brainwashed you to the point of having no rational thought left. (Please people, this is not meant as an insult to Christians, just whatever group conditioned this person to act this way) I was raised in the church, my gf is a diehard Christian, yeah, she prays for me, but I don’t want it or need it, and she isn’t rude or insulting while trying to get me to believe, though hopefully she’s almost given up. I don’t believe that the Bible, the Koran, the book of Mormon, or any of the others are anything more than a collection of parables which provide a guideline for living a decent life, and there is no way that you can prove to me different.
Your Bible says a couple of things that are relevant here though, first that you should show others the way to “Christ” by your actions, you do not do that by insulting people, or even by belittling their beliefs. Also, and this is the big one here, the fact that you insist that the bible has or needs any proof of it’s truth is the most hypocritical that I think I’ve read on here. Like Diff Diss said, “The very definition of faith excludes knowledge” or intelligence apparently.

You know, I think Jim Jones had some of that Cool-Aid left over…

It (xtianity, belief in gods) is arrogance and brainwashing, no different than any cult, and I'll add, more dangerous than most.
The arrogance is evident in a statement where a fanatic assumes the belief system is equal to knowledge. The very definition of faith excludes knowledge.

One reason that arguments such as Starnes' fail is that in vilifying those who would disagree with him, he in effect and very accurately describes the shortcomings of his own points of view. His statements "You are a liar, you are one that will die believing a lie. I believe that there may not be any help for you. Your twisting and manipulation of the truth to satisfy an argument that is totally false. What kind of devious person, or person, with so much hate they, cannot or will not see the truth.", could (and in my opinion, does) describe those who not only hold strong to an irrational and nonsensical belief system, but arrogantly insist that they are the only ones in the right. It's not faith. It's arrogance and brainwashing, no different than any cult.

"God help you and yours, if you cannot find anything decent to say about Christ (God) please keep your mouth shut."

Your childish attempts at justifying your skewed, primitive beliefs are becoming comical. Keep it up.

What an absolute mess. It never ceases to amaze me the folks who somehow find their way onto the world wide web.

Yea the sheep have been hollering "last days!" since the first days, Joe. I do hope I spend my eternity far, far away from the truth-tellin eee-van-jelli-culs.

Lana, I see how that explanation was confusing. I wish I could come up with a better way of saying it, but it's hard to help someone understand God when I have a hard time understanding Him myself.

Remember.....Do not cast your pearls before the swine.

That still doesn't make sense to me. When I am in pain or suffering, I may cry out for my mother/father, but I would not cry out to myself and call myself mother/father. Would you? What about Acts? He had already become spirit form then.

The daughter, sister, & wife explanation makes sense except that your husband and/or sibling would not call you daughter. Each role is different and you are that person only to one or more people (wife to husband, daughter to mother and father, etc.). If true, then Jesus would be God only to certain people, God would be God to certain people, and the Holy Spirit would be God to certain people. I guess we will have to just agree to disagree on this.

I'm sorry if something I've said has bothered you. I'm not sure what issue you were trying to discuss that's supposed to have me stumped. When I respond to people's comments I tend to focus on the parts that get my attention the most. In the previous case it was the part about praying to an "invisi-god" to grant my wishes. All I was asking was if when you were christian did you feel the holy spirit. I was assuming since you almost went into ministry that you had to have felt the spirit. I'm just interested to know how if you did feel that presence, you can deny it's existence. Again, I apologize for anything that has upset you.

Scarlett, its almost like you want to engage in a reality-based discussion of these topics, though when stumped or trumped simply resort back to the circular-logic talking points of the Christian religion. Whether its fear, or possibly the inability to discuss the issue, only you know the answer there. I gave you your answer, and attempted to explain myself and my opinions in a rational manner. It appears everything was ignored except the word "wish", which was twisted into some meaningless drivel, and finished with one of the most generic lines in all religions.

I did bite the hook, and I did make an assumption about your inquiry. Not again.

Lana, the trinity is very complicated to explain, but I will try. (I'm very simple minded, so don't expect anything special) I will use myself as an example...I am a daughter. I am also a sister and I am also a wife. I am one person who fills 3 different roles. As to the reason Jesus cried out to the father, while God was Jesus in bodily form, he was responding to pain and suffering as a human or son would have by crying out to his father.

Eric, I wasn't asking about whether or not you had your wishes granted. I was asking if you had a personal relationship with Christ in which you could feel his spirit within yourself. By the way, God is not a genie, He does not grant wishes. I can pray for a brand new 2009 yellow Jeep wrangler rubicon (which I really do want) until I'm blue in the face, and just because one doesn't show up in my driveway during the night doesn't mean God doesn't hear me or doesn't answer prayers. Regardless of whether His answer to my prayer is yes or no, I know that whatever He does or doesn't do for me is in my best interest.

Ms. O'Hara, I re-read my post and realized that you could indeed think I was saying you had called us those names. I apologize. Just for the record, I don't post on here simply because I like to hear myself talk. I do try to be respectful, and I enjoy the discussions.

I am honestly trying to understand why some believe that Jesus is God. I had never heard that before starting on this forum (Doris was the first to say it), so it is fascinating to me. God allowing himself to be nailed to a cross, etc. just doesn't make any sense to me. When Jesus asked, "Father why have you forsaken me," who was he talking to? In Acts 1:4 . . . but wait for the gift my father promised, which you have heard me speak about. This was said after he had risen from the dead. Considering everything I have read in the Bible, I cannot understand how one could believe the Bible and believe that Jesus and God are the same. I guess it goes to show how different beliefs can be; even those based on the same exact book.

Scarlett, if you tell yourself there is a God, and you wish, I mean "pray" that certain events or instances happen that would be favorable to you and they then occur, that seems to seal the deal for most folks.

I can also now wish, or "pray", to the tree in my yard for favorable instances to occur in my life, and guess what? I have the exact same success rate. Its that rationale of expecting nothing to occur positively, asking an invisi-god, then being convinced that it was all "his" work when the results are in your favor. When the results are tragic, its simply excused by "Gods will."

Its all in your head. Its not floating around in the skies, or milling around in deep space, listening and watching you, playing a fun game of lottery with your hopes and desires.

Yes, Scarlett, at one point in my life I was convinced that all the daily prayers I recited, for those I love, for those I deemed "lost" were worthwhile, and they were being heard by someone other than myself. I also truly felt I was actually performing some type of service to those people I prayed for. Though now, outside of the bubble of extravagant fantasies, I realize that simply hoping that the odds are in my favor, or in possibly easier terms that what I am wishing for "is Gods will", the only way to truly sway the odds is to DO SOMETHING. Praying for the homeless serves no one but the self. Feeding the homeless accomplishes a small part of the problem.

One needs not any church or religion of any sort to feel a deep empathy for the creatures and problems on this planet. After climbing from my own indoctrinated view of life, I find myself to be much more aware of our existence here.

Eric, when you were a christian didn't you ever feel God's presence or have something happen that only God could have made happen or receive blessings that only God could've given? The reason I'm asking is because that's all the "proof" that's needed to know God Exists. Like I've said before, baptist, methodist, catholic, it doesn't matter. All that matters is the RELATIONSHIP you have with God.

Every single account of Jesus is nothing more than hearsay. Not one person who wrote about Jesus ever met or saw him.

Ronnie, you ramble on about "fulfilled prophecies" as some sort of proof. The folks who wrote the New Testament read the Old Testament. Its unfathomable that even after 2000 years this sham still controls great societies. People who are rational folks in most aspects of our existence, still show up on Sunday mornings believing they are drinking the blood of a two-thousand year old man-god.

You have absolutely zero proof of any of your claims, other than the mythic tales of a raggedly over-translated book. It is more than obvious you have never "researched" or even made an attempt to find and read information that refutes your beliefs. The FAQ section of Creation websites that claim to "answer" the questions of the "non-believer" are nothing more than cheap marketing tactics, that, if one were to actually step outside of the closed box, would realize its nothing more than entertainment, and "brain food" for the sheep.

It is a tragic life to lead, Mr. Starnes. Amongst the thousands of religions in this world, which are all held by the folks who are indoctrinated by them as the "truth", how you cannot step back and see this picture as faulty is astonishing.

I once called people like myself "the devil", someone who represents the true evil of doubt and skepticism as told in the Bible. Doubt and skepticism are certainly all religions' worst enemy, and they all will do anything, ANYTHING, to prevent the collapse of control. History proves this true, in no uncertain or doubtful terms.

Doris said...

" It is simply pure ignorance that states there is no evidence ..."

...and I'll have to say, I don't think there is anyone among all the combined commenters here more qualified than Doris to speak about pure ignorance.

Lana, I'm sorry if you felt I was being "nasty". I assumed you were suggesting that I've told someone they were illiterate, idiotic, a bad person, going to hell, etc. Also, just to put my two sense in, God IS all three, the father, the son and the holy spirit.

"Muhammad, a self ordained prophet invented this figment called Allah."
and self ordained prophets wrote the bible and invented this figment called Jehova. I guess you just believe it because there was more than one of them working in concert and building off of what others wrote. Every religion, every belief, started off with one man saying: "this is how it really happened" what makes the one man that wrote two different stories about how man was created more right than the many scientists who have written a single story of how man was created?

Ms. O'Hara, I was simply trying to help explain how many religious arguments are started on here (and other places). There was no need to get nasty.

Mr. Starnes, read the story about the crucifixion. Who did Jesus call to while on the cross? Himself or his father?

When I taught Sunday School, I taught straight from the Bible. Take the verse you gave as proof. "John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" Read it from a different perspective. To me and many others, this verse is saying that Philip had not had faith. Through faith you will find God. Jesus was on earth for about 30 years to tell the people about God and hope they would have faith. It does not mean the literal sense of actually laying eyes on a person; it means to SEE the "truth" and have faith.

You said, "There are many things I don't understand, humans are limited to a worldly mind incapable of understanding it all. If we could, we would say that we're on par with God, we're not." This is one thing we totally agree on. The problem is that you are so certain you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Doris and the one-liners to which she never returns for discussion. Show me the evidence.

It is simply pure ignorance that states there is no evidence that Jesus the Christ never existed.
Even musliums know that Jesus the Christ exisited.

Lana, have I ever called you any of those things? I think you just like to hear yourself talk. And Chase, I didn't start commenting on this board to prove the existence of God.(I'm in no way qualified to be in the middle of that argument.) And as for people who won't be swayed, you are right. I can't sway them, but if I say something that makes them stop and think for just one minute, that may create an opportunity for God to step in change their mind. (I know many people who were once non-believers who have been "swayed")

Mr. Starnes, your Bible says that Jesus is the SON of God; not God. You know, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; not the Father, the Father, and the Father. It also says that Jesus was a living, breathing human being who died. According to the Bible, you get to God through Jesus because Jesus is the one that died for your sins so that you could have everlasting life. Apparently no one could be saved (get to God) prior to this event. According to the Bible, when Jesus walked this earth, how many people did he tell to pray to him? How many did he tell to pray to God (his father)?

"There is no way to the father to be saved (God) except thru Jesus Christ." If Jesus is God, then why would you have to go through God to get to God?

As to the "don't care" question. I could care less if your car is black or purple, but if you tell me your black car is purple and I'm going to hell, I'm wrong, I'm a bad person, I'm illiterate, I'm idiotic, etc., etc. if I don't agree/believe it, then . . .

No, no, "Scarlett," you mis-read my words. I never said that I don't care. I simply said that those who do not believe w ill not be swayed by you, and by arguing on in this exercise of futility, you are driving them to fight back.

But, really, you haven't proved anything. You can't prove the existence of God. Philosophers have tried for millennia. That's the nuance of faith, and if you're going to be Christian, you should have already accepted that fact.

Mr. Starnes,
I'm not sure where you get you ""historical"" information, or your ""scientific"" information, but it seems to be from some religious website or something along those lines. Both Christianity and Islam are ABRAHAMIC religions - they both worship the god of ABRAHAM - Nope, wait, I've got it, Abraham worshiped two different gods, that's it, I get it now. You're so blinded by religion that you can't even see when someone tries to make a historical or scientific point.

So, me (and people like me) are the reason that you fight so hard to prove God's non-existence (even though you "don't care"). Well, you (and people like you) are the reason I fight so hard to prove God does exist. The difference is the reason I fight is because I actually care where you will spend eternity. What is your reason?...

"I why all of you that "don't care" so much about the existence of God, fight so hard to prove the non-existence of Him..."
Actually, this typo-ridden comment answers the question you meant to ask.

Re-read it for your answer. In other words,

You (and people like you) are why that all of those who "don't care" so much about the existence of God fight so hard to prove the non-existence of Him.

I meant, I wonder why all of you that "don't care" so much about the existence of God, fight so hard to prove the non-existence of Him...

I why all of you that "don't care" so much about the existence of God, fight so hard to prove the non-existence of Him...

Not one shred of independent evidence for the existence of Jesus. Can't say that about Mohammad. I don't support any fear based religion at all but there is at least document historical evidence for the existence of Islam's prophet. Wait. I don't care.

"There is no way to the father to be saved (God) except thru Jesus Christ."

"My point here is that no dead or alive person can intercede for us to God."

Hmmm . . . .

M Early

I have long resented the fear-based theology that has been forced down the throats of so many in this hemisphere, but never have seen it put so succintly. Kudos to you, sir!

Ronnie,
Something that you don't seem to realize is that "Allah" and "God" are the same entitiy,
BOTH words refer to the god of Abraham, the god of Moses. Just the same as Baptists, Methodists, Penticostal, Mormons, Jews, and Catholics all worship the SAME GOD. They just don't all interpret the bible the exact same way, nor do they all agree that Jesus has been here already, some are still waiting for the "son of god" to appear, some think he was nothing more than another prophet, but all worship the SAME FATHER.

"Moo-slums"

Your bigotry is showing.

Like Ive said, attempting any rational conversation with this primitive being is like trying to debate the sidewalk. I always find it odd that the most fervent "believers of the truth" somehow never fully grasped the English language. Its quite the sad sight to behold.

BTW Ronnie, Not sure whether or not you realize that "Brother Early" and I are not the same person, and are not related as far as I know.

And we all know that Christians handle serpents during their sermons.

As for Muslims praying to Muhammad, the daily prayers of all followers of Islam contain within them thanks to Muhammad for being the prophet. Much as Catholics thank Mary for being the mother and venerate her for being such. Neither prayer deifies, they just ask for intercession with a god who may not be very forgiving.

Ronnie, way to keep on keepin' on...

Don't hold your breath on that one!!!!

Maybe he'll listen to you Brother, he didn't listen to me when I said it.

I know, I get a kick out of myself as well…

Read things how you like, I said that the people that I hang out with do not belittle or insult me, though you may read that as inferring that you insulted me, it did not. What that was referring to were Christians in general insulting and belittling people who don't believe the way they do, not to mention thousands of years of burning at the stake, stoning, staking, and wholesale slaughter in “holy wars”. Believe me, I've heard on here more than once, not to mention from the local population that other religious affiliations are "ignorant" because they do not know the "truth" in the Christian bible. Or clueless or stupid or followers of Satan, all because they do not believe in the bible, when there is no physical proof whatsoever that any of the religious claptrap held within is true.

As for insulting all the other religions, they catch enough flak from most everyone else on here. I always go with the underdog; it makes the debates much more fun.

I wish all these Bible bangers would just put a sock in it. Most of us have reached the point of saying loud and clear, WE DON'T CARE!!!! YOU'RE 500 YEARS OUT OF STEP WITH REALITY!!!!

To Ronnie: Muslims do not "pray to Mohammed." "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." If you're going to be a self-righteous bigot at least get your terminology right.

Bless your heart Doris, you are very definition of the commenter's post...


and you don't even realize it...


"Biblical illiteracy and cultural myopia are not assets, folks. When your Christ-hating enemies can so easily tie you in knots and expose you as someone who doesn't really know much about his own faith, you are doing more harm than good to the cause of Christ. And when you spend half of your energy trying to convince people who hate your Savior that you're not judgmental or mean or whatever they're calling you, you've lost the battle already."

"The 3rd. comment on this series is an example of the hate and contempt of this intellectual class of hatemongers no opinion, just attack anything to discredit the Christian."

The Dude only attacks the enemy (from his foxhole).

Wheeler MacPhearson ......You are so right. Isn't it sad.?

Ronnie,
I did see that you said "man made god"
and I responded to that exactly:

"NO ONE claimed Mohammad was a god, he was a PROPHET, Buddha was an enlightened teacher not a god, Hindu is a religion"

Just because they pray to Mohammad does not mean that they think he is a god, just that he might interceed on their behalf.

As to me being anti-christian, you wouldn't know. You know nothing about me or my beliefs, but I'll go ahead and tell you. I am more agnostic, I guess than anything: there may be something (someone) out there, but until they come down and introduce themselves/theirself/himself/herself to me, I won't know what to call it. To me, and to about 3/4 of the worlds population, the belief that some cosmic jewish zombie came down to earth for the express reason of letting creatures that he created torture and kill him so that you could eat his flesh and drink his blood and telepathically tell him that you believe in him so that you can live forever is just ignorant. If that bothers you, so be it. My belief bothers a lot of people that I actually know and hang out with, but being good christian people, they give me the information they think I need, do not pummel me with it, respect my desire to hear nothing about it after that, and do not belittle or insult me.

Georgia,
You're wrong, there are athiests in fox holes, I know. How many have you actually been in?
Wheeler,
Your arguement, even if I don't agree, seems to be well reasoned. You're right, some use the illiteracy of christians to refute the insensitve arguements that most make.
Ronnie,
No one claimed Mohammad was a god, he was a prophet, Buddha was an enlightened teacher not a god, Hindu is a religion, not a name (except of a river). Of these religions you're attempting to insult, only Islam is younger than Christianity, The Dharmic religions are far older. If you want to argue against something you must know something about it. See Wheeler's post.
Oliver,
Well said.

Looking back over these comments, I understand afresh how America descended to the wretched place where she now squats. If the professing Christians' on this discussion board are an example of a "vigorous defense of the faith," then it's a literal miracle that this place (which was once a nation, but is no more) wasn't destroyed two generations ago.

Biblical illiteracy and cultural myopia are not assets, folks. When your Christ-hating enemies can so easily tie you in knots and expose you as someone who doesn't really know much about his own faith, you are doing more harm than good to the cause of Christ. And when you spend half of your energy trying to convince people who hate your Savior that you're not judgmental or mean or whatever they're calling you, you've lost the battle already.

If all the PROFESSING Christians in the Tri-Cities area were to disappear right now, what effect would their absence have on the local society? The answer is clear: not much. The whole social club emphasis on being "in church" (as opposed to pursuing a holy, Christ-centered life) is already reaping a bitter harvest.

Shame on professing Christians for giving their enemies reasons to mock the Ever-Living God.

ronnie,

i couldn't have said it better than you did,

"if you talk it long enough you can convince people with no intellect to follow."

christians have mastered that....u are correct.

In some way you are right about Christianity being a crutch. My stength to stand for what I believe does not come from within it comes from God ("crutch"). My soul has been saved not because I am worthy but because Jesus died for my sins ("crutch"). These are a few examples that prove your point. I will gladdly lean on Jesus to straighten my crooked path, to guide me when I am blind, to lead me in the way I should go. There is no greater power to be dependent on then God and without him I would be unable to walk in the way of rightgeness.

Doris, I'm curious, do you think georgewbush is going to heaven? What about Sarah superpowers Palin, Ted Haggard, Monica Goodling, Newt Gingrich, Richard Land or Kindasleezy Rice? How about sean greatamerican hannity, ann coulter, michele malkin or laura ingrahm? All these people profess to be "born again" xtians, having "accepted" jesuschrist as their "personal savior". If there is such a place as heaven, then the fact that those people might be there is enough to make one think that heaven might actually be hell. I'd rather spend eternity entwined in a noodley appendage. In Pasta We Trust!

I wonder how many starving people could be fed on what these companies spend on the "In God We Trust" advertising?

Of course that slogan is only used by companies because it's printed on little green pieces of paper and they want more of yours.

Not surprising, but your point escapes me Doris. Are you trying to show your foolish bravado?

it's no harder to be a christian in today's world than it is to be an atheist - i know. i have no troubles being an atheist because i don't go around spewing off my beliefs (or non beliefs) to everyone who will listen. if christians would behave the same, they would have no "hardships" either.

if you want to talk to god, do it. if you want to go to church, go. if you don't...don't. leave it at that. i have friends who still don't know my religion (or lack of). just because they mention church, i don't have to say, "oh, well, i don't believe in god!" just because someone mentions not believing god doesn't mean a christian has to start reciting bible verses.

i don't see anything hard about it either way. at least it's never been hard for me - from both sides of the fence.

Can you all imagine spending eternity with some of these nuts? LOLOLOLOL

Cross Christ out DD .....one day you will be on your death bed and there are no atheist in foxholes.

Being a xtian in this world may be hard, but being a xtian in northeast Tennessee is about as hard as being a racist bigot, it's just natural to many. Try being Muslim or Mormon or even Jewish, much less a-theist, and see how easy that is. To be a christian is to be status-quo. Status quo is not hard, it's just the way it is.

Kudos Eric!

"You have no idea how hard it is to be a christian in today's world." Oh, I know how "hard" it is. And there is an absolute, legitimate reason. Holding on the coattails of human progress is an abomination to humanity, and the world is tiring of it.

"It's much easier to just go along with the crowd"

Oliver, you think being a christian is going along with the crowd? You have no idea how hard it is to be a christian in today's world.

"You have missed the chance to have a full and wonderful life, and it's the only chance you get. You will have missed the chance to dance, to live, to love fully"

I'm not trying to be rude, but that one really did make me laugh out loud. Not only have I had a wonderful life and the experience of knowing absolute unconditional love, but having a relationship with God has enhanced the greatness of all those things. I feel so sad that you and some others on this board have had such awful experiences with the church, christians, etc., but regardless of what you choose to believe God still knows you and loves you. I know I might as well be talking to air because I'm sure you've heard things before, but I just wanted to speak my peace and let God do with it whatever he plans to do.

Harvie,

Please verify your history before you post it. The words "under God" were added AFTER Lincoln gave the speech. Neither original copy contains that phrase. Please visit this link (an atheist site that praises Lincoln) and scroll down to the Gettysburg Address section. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/lincoln.htm

Again Harvie, please do not believe everything you were taught in grade school.

Lincoln was, actually, very critical of Christianity, Harvie. See here: http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9015167

Even after your long-winded post, of which you simply could have referred to instead of copying and pasting a novel, your statement of "I believe that Abe Lincoln may have been born close enough to the time the United States won it's independence that he may have known some of the founders." is simply false. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but it failed miserably.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
I believe that Abe Lincoln may have been born close enough to the time the United States won it's independence that he may have known some of the founders. Note toward the end of the Gettysburg Address that he says "This Nation, Under God" Anyone want to argue with that?

Exemplary post, Mr. Douglas. Fantastic.

Doris, the "Barney Frank is a big fat homosexual" believer, is well on her way to getting booted again. I look forward to it.

This is a quote from a comment here: "Men once did the same thing to the Son of Christ himself."

Christ had a son? That's a new one. The Da Vinci Code book by David Brown? The one that boldly implied that Christ was a man who had a wife and family? The one that upset the christian community so much? The book that had been banned so people couldn't say that Christ was a man who had a wife and a family? Now this man says that the son of Christ was treated badly by people like us?

That's a revelation!

Seriously, for all of you who think we (we, as in those of us who do not think you know what you are talking about) have never read the Bible.

You'd be wrong. Nearly all of us were raised in the indoctrination. A couple of us studied to become ministers. We know what we are talking about.

If we have learned to think for ourselves and are no longer under the control of the fear-mongers and the hate-mongers who masquerade as "christians" it is because of our history of being victims of the indoctrination.

It's much easier to just go along with the crowd, to say you believe and you think the "way" is the right way, the only way, the one true way.

It is not easy to think for yourself, to question, to read more than one book, to educate oneself beyond the indoctrination. We took the difficult road. We live in the Bible Belt and we don't fall for the brainwashing and the hate-speak and the blind followers.

We are the outcasts. We are the ones people want to silence, to get rid of, to push to "the back of the bus" of humanity.

But we will continue to speak out. We will go on with our lives, knowing that we may be wrong, but we reserve the right to be wrong, at the top of our lungs if we choose, and you can't stop us.

The gist of this is that YOU may be wrong. And what have you missed if you are? You have missed the chance to have a full and wonderful life, and it's the only chance you get. You will have missed the chance to dance, to live, to love fully, to learn as much as you can learn and then learn some more, to see your children and grandchildren learn and grow and become loving, whole adults, who will continue the tradition.

What happens if we're wrong? We will split hell wide open. What happens if you're wrong? Not much. You will die and that will be that. But OUR souls will not be your problem. Your problem is your own soul - your own "back yard" - your own lives. If you took care of that, you wouldn't have time to "convict" us of anything. You'd be guilty of living. Of living life to the fullest.

What a shame that you will never know that joy, that incredible roller coaster ride of life.

You will have limited yourselves to watching the rest of the world live and love and dance and be happy, while you sit there in your judgmental chair and condemn us all, while secretly envying us the entire time.

Also, love how you continue to over simplify and your typical demonization of the poor. Way to go. Typical selfishness and lies of a wingnut. "Waaaa!!! They're going to take my money. Waaaaa!!!! Their going to give it to people who won't work. Waaaaa!!!!" What a bunch of bull$&!t. Give the parroting of the talking heads on the radio a rest.

Hey Doris, why do you and the other wingnuts admit your real reason you hate Barney Frank. Seems like you spend a whole lot of time harping on one man and leaving out the hords of Republican and GOP policies that bear more responsibility. Come on fess up. Why do you really despise him?

And btw .....like the man said at the end of MJ's memorial service / concert. Even Michael Jackson will have to bow before the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thought that summed up what that man thought.

Most of the men that helped form this nation believed in a higher power. Most were freemasons. George Washington 'sLiterary power and statesmanship were combined. George was the greates political leader of HIS time and also the greatest intellectual and moral force of the Revolutionary period. Noah Webster wrote more about George in 1828 ...The point being that George Washington was a moral man. The Christian and Jewish tradition had a hudge amount of effect on his personal and political life according to his own writings. "I am sure there never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a DIVINE interposition in their affiar, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe, that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that GOD, who is alone able to protect them," George penned those words. Makes one come to the opinion that George was at the very least a religious man and that he prayed to GOD. Which God is the question. "The power under the Constitution will always be in the PEOPLE. This is what we have forgotten in america . WE the PEOPLE are the government. We have let BUREAUCRATS take over our job , which is to oversee what they are doing with OUR monies. People like Barney Frank in congress that was over Freddie and Fannie. The Greed that led to the liar loans and cause the stockmarket and the housing market failure. People are afraid to call Barney Frank out on his ethics violations because he is a homosexual, just like pudants are afraid to joke about obama or call obama out on his mistakes . They know they will called homophobic and racist. Let the name calling begin. This plan of this administration will be catastophic to this nation. It is very simple. You take from one that has money ....you give it to ones that do not have as much money. That causes one to have less and the other to have just a little more. The bottom line is the same. It creates a lack of interest to succeed and make more money on both parts. The people that have money know that it will be taken from them . The ones that receive money do not want to work because it's just easier to have stuff given to them. It causes both to have no drive in life. It's all a real BUZZ KILLER. Kills MORAL. BAD PLAN.

Greetings and Felicitations,

"Christians arent using this as a platform to convert the lost. You dont want to believe, fine, dont. Why not leave those that do alone?"

If you want to believe that is your privilege. However, it is a well documented fact that believers don't stop with simply believing. You want everyone to know you believe and go to great effort to make sure that people do. The believer wants his beliefs codified into laws. They want their perspective as the single arbiter of truth. You only have to look the the efforts of the Creationist to observe this tendency. However, every religion does it but we only tend to hear about the Creationist. For example, are you aware that one of the major yoga proponents is trying to get homosexuality put back on the crimes list and is actively promoting the idea that yoga can cure homosexuality. Its the disease of the believer to think they have the answers and want them followed without question.

No, I will not stand by while believers try to promote falsehoods as evident in the issue of America being a Christian nation. I will make sure the counter-point is available to best of my knowledge and ability.

Sincerely Yours,
C. David Neely

Johnny Sac

You missed the whole point of my post and several others: What if any number of the other religions in the world turn out to be correct? What happens to you then? In other words, WHY is Christianity the one true religion? (I'll patiently await your response.)

Let's face it, if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you would most likely be Hindu. And so it goes.

Johnny Sacs wrote:
"I'll tell you what happens. Hell. Hot. Better bring some Coppertone."

There's showing me some love from that one true religion! Again, you reinforce the idea that you are faithful only out of fear.

Kathy Pearson

Exactly which part of the Bible did I misquote? (I'll await your response, as well.) Admit it. You cherry-pick the good parts and discard the verses that don't fit society's current idea of morality. I would say that makes the Bible...well... fallible.

Yup, blackmail into conversion. What a joke.

"What if you are wrong? I'll tell you what happens. Hell. Hot. Better bring some Coppertone. Later."


Wow. That is one scary BELIEF.

"Frank Meyers is correct... Christians arent using this as a platform to convert the lost." You're full of it. They do it constantly with threats of hell fire and damnation. They constantly push their far right wing agenda and wrap it in Biblical quotes. Don't tell me they're not using this site to attempt conversions.

Eric...
"Sac, that's a very poor argument as well. You claimed that if xtianity is not real, then the only other option would be either a: nothing, or b: being re-incarnated as a cow. I realize that the skills of legitimate debate may elude you, but that kindergarten rationale only fuels your opposition. Thanks."

Read a little slower next time. I did not say that the ONLY options if Christianity didnt exist was A or B. Just using a little humor which your sense of may elude YOU. You must be using your futile attempts at appearing to be a superior intellectual to fill something that is void in your life. Now I suppose you will jump to conclusions and assume that I am talking about relationship with Christ. Right? You're good. Very good. Hope you find whatever it is.

Love others as yourself, don't screw around on your wife, don't kill people, don't be a liar, don't want what other people have, and if you do don't steal it, be nice to mom and dad, love God and don't put anything else above God, you know....just be a decent person....how can you folks with all the venom be so insulted with that? It's obvious you've never actually read the Bible. You're making yourself sound really stupid quoting all that stuff and spouting off about what Jesus is and isn't. You really don't know do you? Without a personal experience you couldn't know. Before I had an intimate relationship with Christ, I too was focused only on me. ME ME ME. It was all about me. I spent a lifetime checking it all out. I wanted some sort of answer that would let me have my cake and eat it too. I tried it all. And until I became willing to go to the Way, I was left arguing with people about something I knew nothing about.
And with that, I'll shake this dust off my feet and be on my way.

Sac, that's a very poor argument as well. You claimed that if xtianity is not real, then the only other option would be either a: nothing, or b: being re-incarnated as a cow. I realize that the skills of legitimate debate may elude you, but that kindergarten rationale only fuels your opposition. Thanks.

"No one here is trying to convert you. Anytime God is mentioned in public, certain folks are quick to criticize others for their belief in a higher power."

Frank Meyers is correct... Christians arent using this as a platform to convert the lost. You dont want to believe, fine, dont. Why not leave those that do alone?

Chris Bowman... what if all Christians ARE wrong? What happens? Nothing? Reincarnated as a cow? What if you are wrong? I'll tell you what happens. Hell. Hot. Better bring some Coppertone. Later.

Being a Christian here in East Tenn, Western VA and Western NC is mostly based on fear. What if you die on the way home without being "Saved". Also noted is that some of the commentators on here are basing their religion on fear of going to hell rather than heaven. I think this would be an insult to Christ if he were alive today.
Our country was founded on the principles that all men are created equal and have the right to govern themselves through elections designed to elect leaders or representatives to work for them at the federal level. Most states modeled their constitutions after the U.S. Constitution. The pledge of allegiance and the motto in god we trust didn't come into existence until long afterward. I believe much of our constitution and amendments were written to specifically prohibit religious factions from becoming too powerful in the government. They had already experienced that condition with the Puritans and the Quakers. God forbid one of those groups be able to make laws for everyone to have to follow!

Frank, I said nothing in my previous post that warrants you to compare it to early Christians being eaten by lions. That's absurd, man.

Why can't I criticize religion? If we were discussing politics, sports, education, war, etc., you would have no problem with criticism, and most likely you would engage in a dialogue to prove why you think you're ideas are correct.
Why can't you do the same with your faith?

Show me the evidence. Don't just sulk and then proceed to use a false analogy.

And by the way, my comments were in no way fallcious. The Good Book contains all of the immoral acts I described below.

I would like to strike up a dialogue; it's a great way for both parties to sharpen their debate skills and possibly learn new ideas.

"Why would they do that when they weren't believers?" = fear of the unknown. How convenient yet again, such very valid questions and points are made, only to be blindly shrugged off and pretended to be insignificant to the "true believer." "Modern day version of the coliseum"...yea, Frank, I'm sure all those folks would agree with you. Unreal.

Once again, AMAZING! Reminds me of stories from ancient Rome where the Romans persecuted Christians. This must be the modern day version of the coliseum. I feel fortunate that no one is able to release the lions for a fight to the death. But, if some here were able, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate. Mock, hate, don't believe....I don't care. Men once did the same thing to the Son of Christ himself. No one here is trying to convert you. Anytime God is mentioned in public, certain folks are quick to criticize others for their belief in a higher power. I have known men, who didn't have strong religious convictions, cry out for God's grace and salvation when near death. Why would they do that when they weren't believers? So, I'll take my "chances" as some say and deal with the ridicule.

Chuck Pearson

Ah, yes. Good 'ole Pascal's Wager. Wasn't this argument refuted by philosophers about a hundred years ago?

Chuck, what if Islam is the true religion? Hinduism? Jainism? Mormonism?
What if you're wrong about those religions?

Also, isn't it an insult to your creator to believe "just to be safe?" It seems to me you follow your religion only out of fear.

And, why would an all loving, omnipotent, omniscient God force his followers to believe in Him? It seems trivial if you're a celestial sky daddy with powers to create anything on a whim.

If you're wrong, you will have spent you're life being blindly led by a religion who's central book condones such "virtues" as: misogyny, murder, stoning children and virgins, genocide (oh, yes! - there's plenty of that to go around in the Old Testament), slavery, racism, etc....................the list wouldn't fit in this comment.

But my main point is this: If, indeed, you are wrong, you will have spent your life having surrendered your mind to a religion conceived during the Bronze Age, in ancient Mesopotamia, where a common man would have seen a wheel burrow as a revolutionary piece of technology.

*Sorry, that should be "It is not a Christian nation."

"Seriously? Did you ever think maybe it just means...In God they trust?"

Look at the page again. It's available online at the National Hobby Lobby webpage, here: http://www.hobbylobby.com/holiday_messages/images/messages/july4.jpg

It is clear that the good folks at Hobby Lobby selected antiquated rulings and statements to try to suggest that the US is a "Christian nation." Read it again in its entirety. The quotes were handpicked to make it appear that all of our Founders held the "Good Book" in higher esteem than the Constitution.

It is not. The First Amendment precludes any such connection between faith and politics. "In God We Trust" did not become the official U.S. national motto until after the passage of an Act of Congress in 1956 as a means of further polarizing the two superpowers of the Cold War, because the Soviet Union was explicitly secular.

And, regardless of your faith, you should agree that the motto should be removed from our currency.

For atheists, it is representative of religious sentiment seeking to overwhelm anyone of opposing views.

For Christians and other people of faith, it is a degradation of the name of God. Theodore Roosevelt opposed the phrase being on currency because he felt that it defiled the Lord's name by putting it on something as low and filthy as money, a symbol of the world and the "sinful" greed that you (should) hate.

Well Chuck, there are thousands of religions in this world. All supported by folks who truly believe in their hearts and minds that they are working towards a grand eternity. What if YOU are wrong?

One question for all you who hate the idea of one GOD or don't believe in THE SAVIOR OF THE
WORLD.....WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG !!!!!!!!
IF i"M WRONG, I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO LOSE...BUT YOU HAVE A SOUL...I THINK

What a great advertising gimick. Got all the holier-than-thous misty eyed and ready to spend some money at Hobby Lobby. I would say Walmart should do the same but, then again, it's like a second church on Sunday afternoons.

"Christians are the ones who made that Hobby Lobby sign with the intent of misleading the public into believing that this nation was founded on Christian principles."

Seriously? Did you ever think maybe it just means...In God they trust?

I just do not understand how any reasonable person can object to the people at Hobby Lobby posting a sign that states "In God we Trust" when every dollar we spend has the same slogan clearly printed on it.

The first amendment clearly states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therefore;", and as an explanation I would say government established religion is a religion that is wholly or partially supported by taxation, and we have not had such a religion since 1830, when those that had been established prior to the Revolution had been disestablished.

Back to the "In God we trust", which is clearly printed on our currency, the Supreme Court has already ruled that it does not infringe on the first amendment.

In closing, I would submit that I posted, "Although you would not be able to tell it today, once in this country, most people did hold to Christian principles.", which I still believe to be a true statement, and did not state which principles this nation was founded upon.

No, the issue is most certainly Christians themselves, and not Christian principles. Christians are the ones who made that Hobby Lobby sign with the intent of misleading the public into believing that this nation was founded on Christian principles. The fact is, those "Christian" principles that our nation was founded upon were Enlightenment period principles and philosophies, not exclusively Christian principles.

And forgive me, but I don't see how religious freedom (one tenet that our nation was founded upon) is compatible with the First Commandment.

Maybe it is just me, but according to you post I could not be sure, did Ghandi's statement reject Christian principles, or just Christians in general.

The reason I ask, is because the issue was Christian principles, which are based on the teachings of Christ, not individual Christians themselves, or those claiming to be Christians.

Because, Mr. Upchurch, in the words of Ghandi, "I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ."

Peter,

Maybe you can inform me exactly what you find arrogant about the Christian religion, one that follows the teaching of Christ.

Although I may be mistaken, did not Christ teach love, understand, tolerance, not judging unless you be judged, and letting the one without sin cast the first stone?

It is not for me, or any Christian to judge the faith, or lack therefore, of others but to attempt to follow Christ's teaching to the best of our ability.

Granted, I can not speak for others but given Christ's teaching, I fail to to see anything to complain about when people hold Christian principles, unless someone is opposed to doing to others as they would want others to do unto them.

"Although you would not be able to tell it today, once in this country, most people did hold to Christian principles."


And then that pesky 'melting pot' thingy reared its ugly head, and all of a sudden, we became a nation of many religions, with the biggest to the smallest all being equal in the eyes of government.

Its been a tough fight to keep that one arrogant religion from thinking they run the show here, but its been a good fight worth having.

If a private company posting a sign that says "In God we trust" somehow infringes on our first amendment rights, I simply do not understand how.

The last time I looked, we still had the right to free speech, and could post religious slogans if we desired, although the Supreme Court has already ruled that In God we trust, on our money does not support a religion, and does not violate the first amendment.

Although you would not be able to tell it today, once in this country, most people did hold to Christian principles.

What is a hobby lobby anyway? Is it on K Street? No, seriously, this reminds me of the joke about the two baptist preachers who ventured out on the town while attending conference and couldn't decide which topless bar to visit until they saw the waitress wearing the crucifix around her neck.

Ever read the US's Treaty with Tripoli? It states: "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." That settles it for me. Who could argue with the Founding Fathers?

Sure, many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but many were not. And most understood that the government should not have any part in endorsing religion. Regardless of anything Hobby Lobby says, the First Amendment says that the government cannot force religion down anyone's throat.

Sorry.

Great for Hobby Lobby.Let's patronize all companies that still hold to Christian principles,or,what was once considered so.