Kevin:

I appreciate your response - my intent was just to address the article that says homosexuality is contrary to God. While I'm a Christian and do believe it to be true, I believe that everyone's beliefs are important and I'm not one to convert anyone from what they hold to be true. Just trying to reduce the level of blind preaching - the people who usually spread the hateful message have no idea what their Book actually says.

Nick

Kevin:

I appreciate your response - my intent was just to address the article that says homosexuality is contrary to God. While I'm a Christian and do believe it to be true, I believe that everyone's beliefs are important and I'm not one to convert anyone from what they hold to be true. Just trying to reduce the level of blind preaching - the people who usually spread the hateful message have no idea what their Book actually says.

Nick

Nick, and the others with the most recent posts...

wow..now that's doing some homework, and it's interesting that some of the christians that love to post on issues like this haven't replied...yet.

Anyway, I will say I appreciate you taking the time, in the wee hours to post such an informative and researched reply.

Though I can understand the concepts and translations you presented, I still have issues as to whether all of it, regardless of interpretation is the works or words of the almighty creator.

There are too many people that have come and gone, that still continue to come, that have never heard of jesus christ or will ever hear of him...and if there is a need for salvation to save someone from being born in sin, the I believe there has got to be a better way, or at least more than one way.

Regardless, I appreciate your post..makes me think some, and that's not a bad thing.

To the Christians on here who claim that homosexuality is a sin:

All I really have to say is that you need to read your bibles more carefully.

The most popular verses from the Tanakh are:
Leviticus 18:22 -
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination*.
וְאֶ֨ת־זָכָ֔ר לֹ֥א תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֑ה תֹּועֵבָ֖ה* הִֽוא׃

and Deuteronomy 23:17-18 -
“There shall be no ritual harlot of the daughters of Israel, or a perverted one* of the sons of Israel. 18 You shall not bring the wages of a harlot or the price of a dog to the house of the LORD your God for any vowed offering, for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God.
* this is translated also as one practicing sodomy in religious rituals. Shall be marked in Hebrew with an asterisk as well.
לֹא־תִהְיֶ֥ה קְדֵשָׁ֖ה מִבְּנֹ֣ות יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וְלֹֽא־יִהְיֶ֥ה קָדֵ֖שׁ* מִבְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵל

But there are others, such as 1 Kings 14:24 -
“And there were also perverted persons* in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.“
וְגַם־קָדֵ֖שׁ* הָיָ֣ה בָאָ֑רֶץ עָשׂ֗וּ כְּכֹל֙ הַתֹּועֲבֹ֣ת הַגֹּויִ֔ם אֲשֶׁר֙ הֹורִ֣ישׁ יְהוָ֔ה מִפְּנֵ֖י בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל

1 Kings 15:12 -
“And he banished the perverted persons* from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”
וַיַּעֲבֵ֥ר הַקְּדֵשִׁ֖*ים מִן־הָאָ֑רֶץ וַיָּ֙סַר֙ אֶת־כָּל־הַגִּלֻּלִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשׂ֖וּ אֲבֹתָֽיו

2 Kings 23:7 -
“Then he tore down the ritual booths of the perverted persons* that were in the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the wooden image.”
וַיִּתֹּץ֙ אֶת־בָּתֵּ֣י הַקְּדֵשִׁ֔*ים אֲשֶׁ֖ר בְּבֵ֣ית יְהוָ֑ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר הַנָּשִׁ֗ים אֹרְגֹ֥ות שָׁ֛ם בָּתִּ֖ים לָאֲשֵׁרָֽה

There are two words used here, over and over, to mean the same thing: “homosexuals” or some biblical analogy thereto. In order to truly understand what the Tanakh says, you need to understand what these two words are;

קדש “qadesh” means a male prostitute who engaged in ritual sex in a Pagan temple. This was a common profession both in ancient Israel and in the surrounding countries. The word is often mistranslated simply as “sodomite” or “homosexual.” (e.g. the King James Version of the Bible, Deuteronomy 23:17). The companion word quedeshaw means female temple prostitute. It is frequently mistranslated simply as “whore” or “prostitute.” A qadesh and quedeshaw were not simply prostitutes. They had a specific role to play in the temple. They represented a God and Goddess, and engaged in sexual intercourse in that capacity with members of the temple. Strong’s bible concordance/lexicon goes further to say that they were consecrated to Asarte or Venus, and prostituted themselves in order to bring honor to either deity. This clearly does not apply to what we percieve of homosexuals today (for the most part – there are always some far-out ones, heh).

תועבה “to’ebah” means a condemned, foreign, Pagan, religious, cult practice, but often simply translated as “abomination.” Eating food which contains both meat and dairy products is “to’ebah” A Jew having a meal with an Egyptian was “to’ebah.” A Jew wearing a polyester-cotton garment, or having a tattoo is “to’ebah” today. This is very specific when referring to idolatry, but it should be noted that its basic meaning is something which is either ritualistically unclean for Jews, or something which is condemned by socioreligious consequences. Genesis 43:32 that “the Egyptians could not eat food with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.” using the exact same word.

1 Corinthians 6:9 is where the most interesting and blatant mistranslation lies, also using two words that have historical deixes which are not presented in context in the Bible:
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals*, nor sodomites**,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

9 η ουκ οιδατε οτι αδικοι βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν μη πλανασθε ουτε πορνοι ουτε ειδωλολατραι ουτε μοιχοι ουτε μαλακοι* ουτε αρσενοκοιται**
10 ουτε κλεπται ουτε πλεονεκται ουτε μεθυσοι ου λοιδοροι ουχ αρπαγες βασιλειαν θεου ου κληρονομησουσιν

One of those words is used again in 1 Timothy 1:9-11, wherein it is written:
“9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites**, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.”

9 ειδως τουτο οτι δικαιω νομος ου κειται ανομοις δε και ανυποτακτοις ασεβεσιν και αμαρτωλοις ανοσιοις και βεβηλοις πατραλωαις και μητραλωαις ανδροφονοις
10 πορνοις αρσενοκοιταις** ανδραποδισταις ψευσταις επιορκοις και ει τι ετερον τη υγιαινουση διδασκαλια αντικειται
11 κατα το ευαγγελιον της δοξης του μακαριου θεου ο επιστευθην εγω

The two words used here are μαλακοι, from μαλακος, and αρσενοκοιταις from ἀρσενοκοίτης.


ἀρσενοκοίτης

Greek scholars don’t know exactly what it means — and the fact that we don’t know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of “the effeminate call boys.” We might call them “dirty old men.” Others translate the word as “sodomites,” but never explain what that means. But taking a closer look at the etymology of this word, we can form a pretty good estimate of what it does in fact mean. There are two parts to this word, the first of which being derived from ἄρσην [arsen] which is usually translated as “man” or “male”, but is in fact better translated as “adolescent” when you contrast ἄρσην with ἄνθρωπος [anthropos] which is the greek representation of a human male that we English speakers derive many words from ourselves. So, we have the first part, what is the second? Kοίτη [Kite] can refer to a bed or the act of sexual intercourse (perhaps related to Lat. “coitus” ? ). If you make a compound noun out of those to words, you’d get something like “a man who has sex with adolescents.” Clearly not a broad sweeping definition to condemn all homosexuality, is it?

The other word used, μαλακος, is my favorite mistranslation of “homosexual”. Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant “effeminate call boys.” The New Revised Standard Version says “male prostitutes.” But if we dig a bit deeper and look at the language, we can see that μαλακος is actually an adjective which would describe the quality of something, not name something or someone, which is the function of a noun. Mαλακος means “soft” and is used frequently elsewhere in the bible to describe the texture of clothing. Also, in many concordances, it is translated as “a catamite” which is of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, or a male prostitute. None of this accurately depicts modern consenting homosexual relationships, but rather describes the practice of pederastry which was commonplace in Athenian society, and something a part of which the Jews did not want their people to become. We all need to look more closely at that mysterious Greek word αρσενοκοιταις in its original context. I find most convincing the argument from history that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (μαλακοις) for sexual pleasure just as they hired smooth-skinned young girls for that purpose. Responsible homosexuals would join Paul in condemning anyone who uses children for sex, just as we would join anyone else in condemning the threatened gang rape in Sodom or the behavior of the sex-crazed priests and priestesses in Rome. So, once again, I am convinced that this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

To be in complete light, the Bible is completely silent on the issue of homosexual orientation. And no wonder. Homosexual orientation wasn’t even known until the 19th century. The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat, that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun moved up and down. Although the word homosexual was not used for the first time until later in the 19th century, Dr. Karl Heinrih Ulrichs recognized that homosexuals had been around from the beginning of recorded time, that we were “innately different from heterosexuals,” and that our desire for same-sex intimacy and affiliation is intrinsic, natural, inborn and/or shaped in earliest infancy. According to Dr. Ulrichs, what may have looked “unnatural” to Moses and Paul was in fact “natural” to homosexuals. In other words, the Biblical authors knew nothing of homosexual orientation as we understand it, and therefore said nothing to condemn or approve it.

The Bible is the story of God’s love for the world and the people of the world. It tells the history of God’s love at work rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. It was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. I hope that, having read this, you will agree.

Completed approximately 4AM Pacific Standard time on 22 June 2009 after much stress, many cigarettes, and the snoring of a sleeping partner a foot away.

With love to all, and love in Christ,
Rev. Nick Jacobs

What Would Jesus Do?
A Note To Our Christian Friends
From The ULC Monastery
www.ulc.org

The aim of this comment is to respectfully address a strong & respected population of people who seem to be unable to reconcile their own perceived moral values, based on their Christian beliefs, and the fact that homosexuality exists. Some will agree with the thoughts herein; while others may find themselves in strong opposition. All have such rights.

I assert & challenge each of you to consider that Christians can and
should love & embrace those blessed peoples in our world who are in fact homosexual. This issue is not about changing one's Believe systems or compromising Christ based moral imperatives. It is about reflecting accurately the One whom we as Christians claim to represent - Christ Himself. As Christians we are required to not simply regurgitate Christ's message of Unity, Complete Love, & Tolerance; while our lives
and behaviors toward our fellow man reflect differently. Our active
lives; what the Scripture's refer to as "Fruit," should be a reflection of both the Word & the active Ministry of Jesus Christ.

Christ himself did not agree with all things. In fact, he was the
ultimate rebel. There was much that he saw in the world around him & in people themselves of which he disdained. He witnessed the meshing political marriage between Church & State & hated it. He saw through the hypocrisy of the Pharisees & Religious leaders of the day and spoke against it. He observed the alienation & oppression of those
considered "Outcasts," and he welcomed them. He forgave Prostitutes. He told a tale that anyone, regardless of what they had done, could return Home.
His supper table included all.

Does this mean that Christ approved of all - No. But one of the most daunting tenets of Christ himself was his support of the freedom of each person to choose. Some call it free will. Indeed, there were certain Rights and Wrongs in Gods Law. Christ did not mince words when it came to telling the people of his day about them. But have you ever noticed that Christ never forced His will or his Father's will on anyone?

Is this contrary to our beliefs as Christians? I think not... Not if
we separate ourselves from our emotions or individual beliefs & think as Christ thought - On a Global, larger scale.

Our job as Christians is to ensure that individual rights & freedoms
here in the United States & Abroad are protected & respected. This is in fact a large part of what we were founded upon as a Nation. We don't have to agree with everyone & well we shouldn't. We don't have to support or agree with Same Sex relationships. But we do have to agree with the right of an individual to agree with and support it; free of prejudice & hate, judgment or discrimination.

Christ never forced his will upon anyone. And he certainly did not support the Law ruling over personal freedoms. We are to respect & obey the law, but
be ruled by a higher force...

Citizens own Spiritual beliefs & actions stemming from those beliefs; is a business between them, God and the Religious
Institution they affiliate with. Christian friends, believe it or not
- this means ALL Churches, ALL Faiths & ALL Ministers of such Churches & their Congregants.

We at the Universal Life Church believe in "Doing That Which Is
Right." This does not mean that there are no moral imperatives.
We recognize that there are. What are they? The rights of individuals
to find God on their own terms, the rights of individuals to believe
what they want & to form their own unions based on that belief
regardless of whether an individual agrees or not & the right of all to seek their own slice of happiness here on earth.

Christians may not agree with a
particular individuals choices but they are Biblically required to
support & defend & love all God's children, not just those "Perfect,"
"Sinless" ones of us. For as Christ challenged - "Let He Who Is
Without Sin, Cast The First Stone..."

In closing, allow me to leave you with a final thought. We live in a
tumultuous world, one that is far more divided then it is united. Our
children are leaving the Church, and Christ because of the hypocrisy they see in us their leaders. In the United States alone approximately 70% of people do not go to Church at all. Within our "Christian" family, we separate ourselves in the over 3,000 different denominations - All claiming to represent Christ. We kill each other all over the world in the name of God. Outside the very front doors of our churches we place the homeless, or deviant; while we comfortably drink our lattes and sit in the front pew. Isn't it time we united?
What does the world see of this man called Christ and the people who stand as Ambassadors for him? Do they see Love, Unity, Acceptance of Free Will & the Individual even if they are different?

I'll leave you to answer that....
_____________
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in
me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are
in me, and I in you; that they may also be One in Us, that the World
may believe that you sent me....
Christ prays for all believers.... John 17: 20-21

This is indeed an extension of the Love which Christ taught.

People who belive that homosexuality is contrary to God are basing their judgment on a translation of God's word, rather than the actual original word. You may read this study on my website:

http://hiramxabiff.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/understanding-what-the-bible-says-about-homosexuality/

feel free to leave your own comments there.

Before you make a claim, do your homework.

This is absolutely terrible conversation. All of God's children are equal in the eyes of God. God is not bigoted, nor racist. God loves all of his children; gay and straight, black and white, male and female. There is no lesser nor no superior. Evidence to this is homosexuality in cultures and regions where Christianity doesn't exist and homosexuality is OK and doesn't hurt anyone.

I am a minister of the Universal Life Church Monastery, we preach equality, patience and understanding. I ask that you check our Church out to see what we have on record regarding homosexuality, race and gender. We preach the life of Jesus, not the words of the Bible - which Man has skewed for generations.

I pray for all of you to eventually open your eyes to your judgmental behavior and reconsider the morality which you live by.

"All persons with love for one another have a religious and constitutional right under the 1st Amendment of the United States, to the Sacrament of Marriage. Such is invoked under natural, primal, and religious law. Given this understanding, we hold that it is a denial of religious rights by the United States government to restrain our ministers from their constitutional right to perform the ritual of the Sacrament of Marriage to consenting adults, regardless of sexual design."

www.TheMonastery.org

What I was referring to Georgia is that I was not judging the homosexual lifestyle. I was simply trying to show Jeremy that homosexuality is the same as the other sins in Gods eyes. He seems to think it is worse.

I personally don't practice the lifestyle. However, who am I to judge someone who does? I don't have the right to do so. I can not condone the lifestyle and still be respectful to those who do. They have their beliefs and I have my beliefs and that is as far as it needs to go. No matter what our choices are, we are all humans put on this earth together. We cannot fight and argue. We need to help each other. If you must condemn someone who practices homosexuality, then you need to condemn everyone who speeds, drinks, smokes, curses, overeats, gets angry and the list goes on and on. Anyone who condemns homosexuality also needs to be prepared to condemn any sin. Ergo, cast the first stone. Then, you would have to condemn yourself for being a hypocrite. No one is without sin. I sin daily and I ask God for his forgiveness. I can share my beliefs with others. However, I must respect their beliefs as I would ask they respect mine.

Yes homosexuality and the lifestyle, thereof, is condemned in the Word of God. Period.

BEFORE READING THIS, THIS IS NOT AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS OR ANYONE! IT IS SIMPLY SHOWING THAT THE BIBLE STATES HOMOSEXUALITY IS EQUAL TO OTHER SINS CONTRARY TO THE STATEMENT MADE BY JEREMY THAT IS IS A HIGHER SIN. ALL SINS ARE EQUAL.

This quote below came from a pastor

Question

Does God consider the sin of homosexuality to be worse than the sin of fornication among heterosexuals?

Answer

Categorically, no, and I will tell you why. Because when you have any listing of sins in the Scripture, for example, in 1 Corinthians, chapter 6, he says, in verse 9 - 10, ""Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Categorically, you have got everything in the same list. Probably when you compare sodomites to homosexuals, some would say that homosexuals could refer to what were called Catomites, those who submitted to homosexuals, maybe the younger boy who submits to the pedophile--that kind of thing, so you have two different terms used for homosexual activity. Some would even use those words to refer to people like transvestites or what they are called today "transgender" people. But when you look at a list like that you see that they are all outside the kingdom. So categorically they are all in the same situation--they are defined by their sin. Verse 11, then says, "and such were some of you," so, the point being, that those are all sins that are characteristic of people outside the kingdom, but they are all forgivable--right?--because, "such were some of you." He's saying to the Corinthian church, "you know, that list is a list of what you used to be and some of you were here, and some of you were here, and some of you were here, and so forth." So, if it is true that that sin along with many others defines life outside the kingdom, but that that sin is forgivable, then in that sense it is no worse a sin than any other.

I am just going to post my thoughts on the whole situation. I am a straight guy who is a Christian. I will give you that the Bible does speak against homosexuality. However, the Bible also speaks about overeating, lust, harming the temple (the body). These are just a few. In God's eyes, sin is sin. I know several Christians who overeat, lust or desire after someone else or what others have, and several smoke.

I am saying this for one reason. And, the Bible says it best. "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7.

So, here is my challenge to everyone. If you are without sin, then by all means, keep bashing the gays. However, if you keep bashing the gays, then you have sinned because you are a hypocrit (sp?).

This is a fine line. I used to be against homosexuality. And, I still don't practice it or completely condone it. However, I challenge everyone to think about this. The Bible tells us "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13. Based on the principles I am hearing here, a smoker is going to hell. Someone who overeats is going to hell. Someone who lust is going to hell.

But, what if that person has asked God to come into ther life and they still do these things. Are they still condemned to hell?

Someone had mentioned Pastor Boyd at State Line Baptist Church. I know Pastor Boyd and he is a good man. But, he has overeat. And, he will admit that. But, he is a confessed Christian. So, according to God, he is saved. But, according to some of the comments, he is going to hell.

What if a homosexual is saved? Does this mean just because he is a homosexual he isn't saved?

My whole point to this is that in God's eyes, a sin is a sin. Smoking or overeating is no less of a sin that homosexuality. So, who are we to judge what another person does when we commit sins ourselves?

You should only judge another person if you are without sin. The Bible tells us all have sinned.

Bottom line. Do not come on here and trash people because they are homosexual. Accept them for who they are. Do not criticize their actions. There are more smokers and overeaters than there are homosexuals. But, you know what? God loves them all the same. God may not condone their actions. But, he doesn't condone overeating and smoking either.

You do not have to agree with the lifestyle. No one is forcing you to agree with the lifestyle. I don't agree with smoking because I know what it can do to a person. But, I am not going to bash them for doing it. I don't have to like it. But, It is their choice.

I went to school with gay people. I currently work with gay people. But, I don't treat them any differently. They are not forcing their lifestyle on me.

Finally, we should not judge a person. Only they know where their heart is. Coming in here ad bashing people for their lifestyle choice alienates people. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say "If that is what Christianity is all about, I don't want any part of it." The hypocrits are what cause this. A Christian is going against God's orders and casting the stone even though they are not without sin themselves. This makes you as condemned as you are telling the homosexuals they are.

Oliver, hey thanks. Been enjoying the reading this afternoon. It's always interesting and usually irritating at the same time to catch these little topics being discussed from time to time....god, I can't believe now adays that I used to be one of them...Penticostal holiness here. Anyway...long story. But on the 10 commandments yeah, I hear ya there too, however, I will give the church system some credit because I have seen some individuals come from lives of drugs, alcohol and such make a great turn around and start living some kind of christian life - and usually for the better...so I think religion can be a better alternative for some people, if they just can't pull themselves together on their own...if you feel that anything would be better than drugs and alcohol. :) Now that I've learned to think on my own and realize that I have an opinion that's just a grounded and well thought out as the next person, I'm finding life is a really great thing...but don't feel any need what so ever to figure out who or what I should or have to worship...and wow, it's a great thing. The bible says that my conscience has been seared with a hot iron, but damn it felt good! :)

Also reading alot of this on here from these church people is a fresh reminder of why it all stopped making sense to me in the first place - so i guess I should give them a little more credit.

If you are literate, you will find my name about half-way down the page. Or, if you are technologically competent, you could search this webpage and find my name no less than seven times.

And stop insisting that you don't have to acknowledge any of my points because I'm younger than you. Ageism is intolerable in all forms.

chase,

i made a comment to someone else...not you....since i've never spoken to you before...that it was time for me to "go talk to a wall."

and this is an opportunity for you (who has nothing to do with it) to attack me, why?

did you miss the post where i asked you not to address me anymore? i don't argue with children.

no, i haven't ever seen your name before. maybe you're like so many others who change it. i looked for "chase lyons"....and didn't see it. yes, child, i'm illiterate.

Welcome, Kevin, and I must say, you have covered everything quite nicely.

You will no doubt be attacked here, but you'll just have to know it isn't anything personal, and as the old man said, "consider the source."

You've come to the same conclusions as many of us here, after having struggled with the question of christianity for decades (in my case).

Anyone who uses the brain God gave him or her (???) can figure it out for themselves.

As for the 10 commandments, there are only three that have anything to do with common sense morality - steal, kill and lie (perjury, I suppose).

The rest are all about worshiping God in a prescribed manner.

Anyway, welcome, and I hope to read many more of your comments.

Harvie, actually I agree, the 10 commandments aren't a bad thing, and for the most part, christianity at it's core isn't a bad gesture, if you just want to take the 'love' part of it all. But if you really read the new testiment it's full of all kinds of side issues about how to treat people that don't repent and believe and such. And if people are only focusing on the 'golden rule' tones of the bible, well, they could have gotten the very same thing out of any other major religion or philosophy that was written before and after the bible came into existance...so I'm not sure what the point really is.

Wow, this Ronnie fellow is a real piece....

I guess I should be more understanding since I used to be a christian for 38 years. I think I used to be just like him, but thankfully I saw the light.

His words..." Put simply, it is right or wrong. It is wrong, filthy and an abomination in the sight of the Almighty. I stand with the almighty in calling this what it is. Pedophilia, child molesting, bestiality are the same. What it is, is SIN....."

It's no wonder people are afraid of gay people if our sexual issues are no different than those pedophils, child molesters and bestiality people. I don't think consential sex between adults in any way, shape or form should be connected people that have these kinds of issues.

Though this isn't really the topic of discussion, except in an off handed way, I would like to those christians that are so bent on preaching about what is sin and what is gods word, to explain, yet one more time, which 'words' of god and which 'sins' should be taken seriously.

Point is, a christians concept of who god is, is soley based on what they have read from the bible and their 'faith' in what they read. My question is if being a christian is so clear cut and easy and great, then how in the heck is a person supposed to know which version of christianity is the right one? (if there even was a right version?) For the word of god to be so important it's strange how no one can hardly agree on what god's will is for the world and what isn't. If the bible were indeed gods word, then he only meant one thing when he said it, or had it written down....but no, we have hundreds or thousands of interpretations of the same text, everybody has their own little twist to god's word to make it fit their comfort level and then go off into the world to convert everyone to their own revelation. It's amazing really...I'm so glad i saw the light and got out of the whole mess.

They will say the proof of god is in the creation around us. I say, if that's true, then which god is the one that created everything?Jehovah/Jesus, budda, Allah, Scientology??? Who can actually say that is there is only one higher power? Maybe who we percieve as god isn't the kid in the playground...point being, until god comes down and give ALL of mankind the proof that he is the one that created us and give ALL of us his words to live by, then the sky's limit as far as I'm concerned as to what the meaning of life and reality as we know it really is. And it isn't my fault that god didn't give us a clear cut path to follow. If he did, everyone that wanted to be religious and follow him wouldn't have 10 million different interpretations as to what right or wrong. Many christians are sincere in what they believe, but just because you are sincere and pray sincerely doesn't mean that you are not just sincerely wrong.

If believing on Jesus is the only way to get salvation then what about all the other people in the world today, and in the centuries past that never had the opportunity to even know he existed? Are they just out of luck? I've asked these questions before and then comes all the little tweeks and personal revelations as to how it all makes sense and is fair. But either you are saved through jesus christ or you're not, according to the bible. And if you're not lucky enough all this time to have heard about him then too bad. you were just born in the wrong place. And if you can be saved somehow, after death and enter into heaven, then what's the point of everyone else believing on jesus christ while you were living???

If the bible, preachers, prophets, the holy spirit/prayer and church is the only way to access who god is then it's an awfully lame, inefficient way to go about saving man from his sins.

Christians rely on the bible as their road map, and honestly think that the catholic church through the centuries of killing and destroying entire civilizations wouldn't consider fudging the scriptures to fit thier own political agenda's is just shallow. I know, I used to be that shallow.

I say, to be fair with everyone, that for every sin (as noted in the bible) should also be made illegal, like lying, adultry, women speaking in church, women wearing pearls or braiding their hair, working on the sabath, having lust in your hearts and on and on....make that illegal and lets see what the christians have to say about it all then. If you can just pick and choose what's relevant for today, then there's no absolute to go by when it comes to what god really says. If you wanna continue to make gay marriage illegal, then you should be in jail for divorce, gossip and a whole host of other sins that christians do on a daily basis and just ask forgiveness for.

Us gay people do not want to convert you or be in your face about what we do with another person, sexually or otherwise.

I would like to know exactly what the perception of the 'gay agenda' really is, as it's spouted out so often....What IS the gay agenda? and then I would ask what is the "straight agenda"???

The whole concept of gay being sinful in the first place is based on christian antics, a religious view. It's only immoral because you've either read or been taught that it is. And that doesn't make it sinful or wrong just because you read it out of a book or was taught that by your bible thumping pastor growing up.

It should not be illegal just because you believe that it is.

I now happen to think that christianity, in all it's glory, is one of the worst things that has come along in centuries....just start with the Roman Catholics and work your way on up through history to see what this message of 'love and salvation' has done to those that choose not to follow it.

It's no wonder that churches keep having to come up with new ideas and programs to keep the younger generation interested in attendance....They've already let the bars down from where they were 50 years ago just to keep up with the changing sentiment of people. The standard of godliness has changed alot in the past few decades, and christians today think that things were too strict a 100 years ago or so....the point is, if they were preaching the word of god back then, then why is it not relevant today? It's obivious that the word of god changes, ever so slowly as people themselves change cause if it didn't then the churchs would be suffering from non attendance and probably couldn't support themselves....just my opinion and yes, it is subject to change upon new information.

If all these bible following people on here could actually give some meaningful proof as the why the unbelievers should actually believe in a book (bible) that is for one, riddled with error and contradictions, and two could actually provide an explanation and proof as to why it's the word of god it would be a great start at some fruitful conversation. (but that aint gonna happen)

In the mean time, us gay people patiently try to keep plugging away for the simple equal rights that we deserve as americans and human beings. It's much better than it was decades ago, but there is so much further to go.

We don't want the whole world to be gay. We don't want to convert anyone...in fact that's impossible to do, either you are or your aren't, and if you're curious then that's up to you. We don't want to tear your families apart, you're doing a good job of that on you own. We don't want to keep you from worshipping your god...but we do want our tax paying money to provide the same benifits for us as it does for every straight person or any other person has.

It's not a complicated issue if you take religious sentiments out of it. It just called being fair.

Kevin Walker, not many of your errors caused any loss of what you intended to say. First off, I am not gay, I am heterosexual as they come and even the thought of engaging in any kind of sex act with another man makes me cringe. However, I do believe that everyone be treated equal. I also have reached the conclusion that religion for the most part is ridiculous. There is not one human being living today who would live exactly as Jesus said for people to live. The ten commandants are not a bad idea of what life should be based on. All except the first one of course.

By the way Doris, who do you assume I'm impersonating? I've explained my user name several times.

Yup, Eric is right. I wish we had a psychopath filter on here.... Would be better than the "Easy Button."

Not everyone, we've just learned to recognize style (or lack thereof), voice, tone, and content. Also, using the same insults, and getting booted for the same personal attacks, over and over again is a clue.

Actually the truth is we of the Gay Chorus are involved in this massive conspiracy (You did know we all know each other? I'm up for the new toaster oven for meeting my recruiting quotas for the month.) and are able to ferret out information from diverse sources from inside contacts, satellite photos, wire taps, witch craft, Ouija boards,... uhm... did I forget something. Oh yea, sheep entrails.

ok, I had countless typo's in that post so please over look. I guess I need to proof read a little better next time. :)

Wow...don't know if I can add anything to this already tired and worn out thread, but....

First of all, I can say that I'm an x christian...been there done that, for most of my life, unit 38...was married with 3 kids, went to a fundamental bible church believing that the Bible was inerrant and all that... I probably know the bible as well as an christian so I know where I came from and why I'm where I am today...

Having said that, it still amazes me that people think being gay is a choice. Yes, of course you choose to act on your natural desires, whether you are gay or straight so I will grant that, but trust me, I would have done anything to keep my family intact and in fact, I tried every prayer I could muster to try and change this overwhelming issue that I had my attraction to other men. Just didn't happen and it was church it's self that was leading me down a path of depression and suicidal thoughts because I simply just didn't think there was a way out. I blamed myself, not god, for not being "delivered' from such a perverse and nasty 'spirit'....Until I finally realized what the bible, christianity and religion in general really is. Now, for the first time in my life I'm finally happy and free and realizing that the world and all it's people aren't as big and and bad as I was taught.

Medically speaking, it's basically been proven that homosexuals have a different brain chemistry that straight people. If it were a simple choice on our side then why the hell would we put up will all the crap that we've had to put up with for years? Being gay isn't just about sex, it's who you fall in love with as well.
And you can't help who you love and who you don't, that as well is chemistry.

The only agenda that gays really have is that they want the same rights as everyone else, including straight people. If the gay community over the years hadn't been treated as outcasts and mentally ill, jailed, beaten, hated etc..then there probably wouldn't be the need today for certian gay people to have the marches and parades and so on that they have.

Being gay is kind of like being born with one brown eye and one blue...and it's kind of like living in a world where if you don't have blue eye's its a sin and you're constantly having to deal with being in this minority. So, many just wear sunglasses so no one will see what color their eye's are until they just get tired of wearing them, then all hell breaks lose when friends, family and church find out...Of course, you can't change the color of your eyes, but most church people would want you to just 'pull out your brown eye' so you will conform to their way of believing.

The straight community has made the biggest mess out of the sanctity of marriage that ever was. There IS NO more sanctity to marriage. What more could gay people possibly do to tear down the social structure of the family??? No one as of yet can really answer that, only vague opinions about what might possibly happen, and even that is just based on their opinion and belief system.

The religious people that are always raggin on us gay people for simply wanting to be equal with them should not be allowed the benifits that all the gays provide for all the straights out there. If they hate the kind of life that we live, then just delete all of the arts, movie's fashion, literature, architecture,food, design, furniture etc etc etc that we are a part of and go live with your ugly, outdated clothes, homes, music, food and whatever and don't take part in the little special 'gene' that the gays have to be good at those things.....not saying straight people aren't as good, but if you take out the influence on every day life that the gay people have added to it, then the world would be a lot less beautiful.

But, forget all that. I couldn't care less what other people believe and I don't force my beliefs on anyone one either. I think most of us gay people on have issues with religion, when they try to us political avenues and laws to prohibit us from the very same luxuries that they themselves are privy to.

And the thing about science is this, in my humble opinion, is that at least they will grow and change their opinions as evidence proves that their first opinions were wrong. Not so with most religious people. They are stuck in this blind faith in a book that has no proof whatsoever that it's the word of god and then just go from there trying to change the world based on their "faith in it"...which is where the rub usually comes in.

If god, whoever or whatever he is, is soooooooo concerned about the plights and sins of mankind, he certianly could have made a better way of informing his 'people' as to exactly what he meant when he said it, and not only that, could certainly continue to give his word out, without question and need of proof, on a continuing basis for everyone that needed or wanted to know what he really wants from us little people....but he doesn't. According to most religious people, they try to use a book that is extremely outdated, that can't be proven, has to have preachers and such to tell the people what it means as the only way to understand god's will and commandments....I don't want to serve a god who is so inefficient.

And to further that point, whether it's religion or science or whatever, until someone can figure out where god came from, thus us - then no one will really know what the 'truth' really is.

If you study some on quantum mechanics and that whole string, the science behind it has some really interesting information that will certainly make any person that isn't brainwashed into a 'one way only' mentality stop and think about what is really going on behind the scenes of our current reality. I don't understand it all, not saying that I believe it all but I really enjoy the opportunity I have now to think, wonder and research without any outdated baggage that the church left me with about 8 years ago.

If everyone could just see that we are all people that need to live and survive, eat and sleep and love and all that, and let them find their own way through life then the world in general would be a better place.

Forget the old testiment and the piles and piles or errors that it has, the new testiment is equally as bad...I could sit here for hours and spout all the things in the new testiment that 'god's word' tell christians to do and not do, but most people just use it as a buffet and pick and choose what they want to adhere to and what they want to explain away as not being relevant for our day...it's just amazing. If it's the almighty word of god, then you should carry out every word without question and see what kind of life you would be living.

And lastly, those that say this nation was built on christian principles...that's not so either. And as bad as it sounds, this nation and it's laws is nothing like what it was when the constitution was drafted. Whether good or bad, the government of the US has basically trampled on the american rights and we just stand there and let it happen....just look at the changes in our laws concerning the patriot act for example.

Anyway, too much to write about in a single post, but after reading most of this gibberish on here I just had to put my two cents in.

I'm gay. I've tried to live the straight life. I'm spiritual but have tried the whole christian thing and I'm happy and content now where I was living a life of gilt and self hatred because of the way I was born...so, I know where I stand. It irritates the hell out of me when people haven't walked in any one elses shoes, but still think they know what they're talking about.

You don't have any idea what it's like to be gay unless you are, regardless of what your faith is or what the bible says or any other religion.

I still help the sick and the poor, care about those that need caring for, respect others for what they believe, strive to be fair and honest in what I do and let everyone one have the same courtisy. I don't need any religion to make me want to be a good person and I don't need the threat of hell and a burning lake of fire to keep me in line. I wanna be a good guy just because I wanna be.

Ok..that's my two cents worth...though I think it probably turned into a couple of dollars by now :)

"gary simmons" has now morphed into "k. bush." Why so wierd?

I was looking at punctuation "signature" and similar phrases. Dead giveaways.

Long, are you illiterate? I was commenting on this letter before you were.

How could not have seen my name? And I really don't see the big deal about commenting on something that you said. Everything's fair game once you post it. I hadn't checked the comments on here for weeks, and when I looked at it the other night I found a gem of a statement that you had, and I pointed out how idiotic it sounded.

I think that you've realized that you can't reply logically to any of my arguments, so you've
pulled me into a game of insulting one another.

But, Brother Early, I think it might be a little early to assume that Martin is Doris. His words seemed pretty coherent, and Doris's trademark seemed to be her unintelligibility.

OMG I just realized something! SHEEEEESSSS BACKKKKKK!!!!!!!

Norrel/Simmons/Early were not "conservative". Based on their comments they are defined as far right reactionary. HUGE difference.

"Martin"...haha. my thoughts exactly, eric taylor.

chase, whatever.....i have never seen your name before until a few days ago and now you're showing up to make comments on articles i posted on weeks ago. again, get a life.

Hmm...define "conservative" for us, "Martin."

Wow. Just wow!

One thing and only one comes to mind...

WHAT IF...You live your entire life as ANY book OR group of people say "is the way", then you find out in the end of your journey that it was all just that, -books, and opinions- based on "their" thoughts of how life SHOULD be ?

Sadly you have not lived at all at that point, but breathed.

No, not quite, JK. If you would look down this list, you would see that I myself have been a frequent commenter on this article. Last night I checked the comments for the first time in a week or so, and after seeing such a statement as yours that just begged to be replied to, well, I couldn't resist. It isn't that I'm stalking you or seeking to start arguments with you. It's just that everywhere you pop up, you spout off an opinion that I just can't agree with.

I wonder what the people who want to outlaw homosexuals are scared of? Are they afraid they might want to experiment because the gay couple seems to be enjoying life so much?
I think it is mostly because it reminds them of their own sexuality and there are many people who would embrace the puritan lifestyle if they could. I don't think it has anything to do with the bible or God's laws. The reason of course is that is only one of God's laws. There are many more laws in the same area of the bible that cannot be enforced.

Some of you make me, a person who does not care of others opinions feel so much better about myself! =)

chase, seriously, do you have no friends?

when i was 17, the last thing i wanted to do was stalk someone on the internet and leave a response to every comment they've ever made - nevermind how long ago it was made! go out on a date - egg a house - cruise around aimlessly. for god sakes, quit stalking me, kid.

get a life. you are freakishly obsessed with me.

JK Long: "well, i have to go talk to a wall now...."

I'm sure it's happy to finally be able to hold a conversation with it's intellectual equal.

Nah, I was just saying it's not big deal if someone is holding hands. I don't like big ol' nasty PDA either. I don't care who it is.

brother early,

maybe you took my last post the wrong way. my point was that i was telling mr. norell that gay people don't "flaunt" their sexuality just like straight people don't flaunt theirs.

i meant....i don't hug or kiss my husband in wal mart typically because we are there to shop, and it just doesn't come up. the same thing for homosexual couples....they usually don't feel the urge to stop in the middle of an aisle and make out.

did i word something wrong?

i have no problem with gays. am i gay? no.

do i care that people are? no. i wouldn't even care if a gay couple did kiss in wal mart in front of my children...it would be a learning experience. do i think it's kind of strange for anyone...homo or hetero to do so? YES. if you're in the bread aisle and you can't control your urges....you have issues....gay or straight...period.

Eric did you use the "promise rings" when you had your nipples pierced? hehehehehe Joking! I can just hear "you-know-who" sayin, "I knew it! I knew he was sick like that. Lawd gave me a vision." LOLOL

That's because the image of Hillary and Barbara... Oh lord. I can't go there.

Brother Early, soon after the 1992 presidential election Barbara Bush invited Hillary over to the White House for lunch. Of course the media was there to cover her arrival, and right there on national TV was Barbara and Hillary holding hands as they walked into the White House.

I sure don't remember anyone yelling "lesbians!"

If ya want to know where the concentrated populations of young homosexuals exist, take a look at your church's youth group. Church is the grandest guise of concealing sexual preference. Over 50% of the gay folk I know did their best to use church as the "last resort" in trying to hide one's sexual preference. And those "promise rings"? Oh, those are fantastic. I had two of them as I grew through my teen years. The older folk thought I was such a "godly" boy, showing off my "I'm waiting until marriage" ring and being able to back it up. How funny, looking back at all that.

Yup, I've noticed. Seems like they make that the end all and be all of who we are. Makes me think the psychologists are right about latency. LOL

Brother Early,

"If my boyfriend and I did that or even showed the slightest amount of affection for one another certain people (like some of those in here) would get the vapors, start foaming at the mouth, and have a stroke on the spot. Hmmmm... Maybe I should do it."

Maybe you should.

I think it's ridiculous that my husband and I can hold hands and steal a quick kiss walking through WalMart but you and your boyfriend are expected to pretend your relationship doesn't exist.

And have you noticed that the folks who are so offended by homosexuality sure seem obsessed with homosexual sex? Just an observation...

My thing is so what if you did? Holding hands is not getting down and grubbing in the dirty. If a straight couple were walking through Wally World holding hands no one would really even pay attention. If my boyfriend and I did that or even showed the slightest amount of affection for one another certain people (like some of those in here) would get the vapors, start foaming at the mouth, and have a stroke on the spot. Hmmmm... Maybe I should do it.

brother early, my point of telling him my family members situation was so he could see that not all gay people are "flamboyant" and they don't "impose their sex lives on them"...

i've never seen my family member and his partner hug, hold hands or kiss ...much less do anything more. so, i'm pretty confident that they don't walk around in wal mart kissing and giving each other goo goo eyes. who does? not me.

JK I like. :-)

you're right....i don't "like" women....in fact, i can barely stand most of them...

i'm a straight female.

as for the rest of your post....well, i have to go talk to a wall now....

"Well alot of the homosexuals that I know are NOT good looking and some are good looking."

I know a whole slew of ugly straight people. Just go to Wal-Mart on Sunday afternoon. Who cares?

"It's obvious that you JK do not like women."

Typical strawman attack. What a joke.

"I have seen men that are acting alot more girly that women. Women know when a man has that PROBLEM. Parade or No."

AH-HA!!!! Now we find the root of the issue. So, not only do you have a problem with gay people but if they are effeminate you're head comes unraveled. Hmmmm... Sounds to me like someone has a problem with women. Demonization of femininity usually rears it's ugly head in hating anything considered feminine, i.e. self perceptions of what it means to be gay.

"ARe you saying that there are homosexuals that give homosexuals a bad name?.
hahahaha."

Just as there are some (many actually) who give straight people a bad name {holds up a mirror}

"I do believe you might be right on that matter. Some homosexuals are more flamboyant than others. I would love to see them stay in the closet where they belong. We hetros do not impose our sex lives on them."

So, now there are degrees of gayness? LOLOL We will not stay in the closet! Get over it! You and the other fascist Xians have tried for years. You would love nothing better than to load us up in the cattle cars and send us to the gas chambers. Try to push us back in the closet and it will get ugly. You think gay men are all passive. The majority of us learned how to defend ourselves very early. LOLOLOL

Saying "sex lives" is also typical. You are the ones who always make it about sex. You're obsessed with sex. So you're telling me that your "straighthood" is all about sex? Pathetic! As for imposing your sex life. You do it daily. Everything in your "lifestyle", to use your word, screams straight. But as I've said before it takes a little insight and intelligence to see that.

Lana, your post at 9:24 is something I have asked of several people who insist that being homosexual is a choice, and yet no one bothers to answer. Why? Because they can't. They can't on the one hand say that gay attraction is chosen, yet heterosexual attraction is natural. There are other unexplainable things that affect our feelings and emotions other than being near someone and having an attraction for them. One such example is music, such as a certain song that makes us sad. We don't choose to be sad, it just happens naturally. One song may have no effect on a person, yet with another individual, it may have a profound effect. It's only words and sounds, but the effect can be immense.

In the same fashion, the feelings that you or I or anyone else has for someone of the opposite sex cannot simply be explained away.

But back to the issue of choice. As I said before, it is arrogant for someone to say that being gay is a choice, when the gay person insists that it is not.

I recently checked out a web site that was supportive of California's Prop 8. Oh what a laugh I had. On it the supporters stated that their movement wasn't about taking away legal rights from gays...you know, the same ones that heterosexual couples enjoy. No...what they wanted to accomplish was to preserve the "tradition" of marriage. In other words, that it is supposed to be between only a man and a woman.

Wow. Talk about one group inflicting their lifestyle upon another. But that's OK when it's the heterosexual people who are the ones forcing their viewpoints. Right?

For the people on here who are against homosexual marriage, I'd like for you to explain how it affects your marriage.

s. norell,

all gay people don't go on "parade". as a matter of fact, there are gay people who actually hate the fact that there are people who do that.

my family member is a very attractive male who lives with his partner, has a respectable job, nice house, nice cars, etc....and MOST people would never know he is gay unless he told them or they knew his living arrangements....because he looks like and acts like every other man in america (except his sexual preference). trust me, i know this because since he is a good looking man....anytime he's came around me, women have asked who is that?! etc...after he left. i would say, "he's gay" at which time their mouth would drop. he doesn't hide it.....last time that happened...he'd left the room for a minute, and when he came back i said, "yeah...my friend was saying how good looking u are and i told her you're gay so don't bother"...and he laughed and made jokes. he also makes fun of guys who walk around twisting their hips and snapping their fingers for lack of a more PC description.

so, just because a gay man is openly gay....living with his partner, etc. does not mean that ALL gay men take part in parades and are flamboyant. it's very likely one of the most "manly men" you know is a gay man, and yes....he may even be married!

the stereotype about gay men being on parades, recruiting people, etc. is just as silly as taking the actions of ONE WHITE MAN and assuming that every single other white man in the world behaves the exact same way.

Whenever the religious people can't support their theory in any other way, they pull out the Bible and start quoting it. Certain parts of the Old Testement are discarded. Only the part they want to use to support their belief is still valid. All the other laws were replaced by Jesus eventhough he said he didn't want to replace the old laws but rather add new ones. How anyone can read the entire Bible with understanding and still believe it is the Holy Word of God is beyond me.

Well said, Julie

It all comes down to this, none of us know who wrote the bible. You can say all you want about the apostles and the historians but guess what...none of us were there, none of us know anything about any of the people involved. To blindly believe such nonsense without being able to see the mind control aspect suggests low-intelligence. The human ego is mind-boggling, to think we are special or any better than anyother creature on this earth is ridiculous. I can see the good side of religion...it teachs right from wrong (for the most part) and gives people something to look forward to (because life just sucks...its hard as hell and that's the way it is). But to force your beliefs on someone else because you think its right and your religion tells you to "spread the word" is a violation of all civil rights. You do not have the authority to tell me what is right because your god told you to. Guess what folks...not everybody thinks like you do. We (the south) are the butt of the joke when it comes to religion...I mean we have TV news segements and newspaper segments devoted soley to religion. This is not the way the rest of the country or world does things!! Keep your religion and views on other peoples sexuallity to yourself...its none of your buisiness!!!

"Recruit , etc. The group called Queer Nation has a leader that says they recruit."

Yea, we've seen that near-exact statement a few times here, right Doris? Unless you can find a personal secretary to do your typing, nobody's gonna be fooled.

you people make me want to cry. I don't remember Jesus ever condeming anyone but the religious leaders of his time, interestingly enough. Why don't you imitate him and go feed the hungry during this horrible recession, and stop yelling at each other over what may or may not happen behind closed doors?

This thread has made me more determined than ever to never set foot in a church again. You can't even follow the 2 laws Jesus left behind to love God and your neighbor as yourself! You're not here to belittle your neighbor into heaven! and if you think telling people how evil they are will make them stand in line to get in church, you're WRONG. i've met ex-cons and gays and drug dealers with more freaking compassion than you "christians" have! keep your lame religion to yourself. I for one don't want it.

BE CAREFUL HOW YOU LIVE. YOU MAY BE THE ONLY BIBLE SOME PEOPLE EVER READ.

Doris, are you still going on with this tired crap about "queer nation". How about we make judgements against all straight people based on the stupidity of the far radical right? How about I stereotype every straight person based on the hate you spew here? Also, you're taking the comment of an extremly radical ACT-UP spin off group out of context and NOT quoting accuratly. All you're doing is regurgitating garbage Michael Savage and the other crazies on the radio have been vomiting on the airwaves.

Yes, straight people parade their sexuality constantly. I guess you have to have a little insight and some intelligence to see it constantly. I assume you wear your wedding ring? You and your husband own a house together? Do you all do social activities with other couples? How about children; do you parade them around? How about a big showy wedding with announcements in the paper? We all get to see pictures of straight couples and their children every time we turn around. Turn on the TV. 99.9% of the relationships are straight. Day in and day out we're surrounded with the straight "lifestyle". Doesn't make me uncomfortable. Of course I'm not heterophobic.

I have a question for those who claim homosexuality is chosen. Why were you attracted to your spouse? Did you "choose" to be attracted to him/her or was it a natural chemistry you had no control of? I certainly didn't choose to fall in love with my ex-husband. I can assure you that if I could have chosen, I would have certainly picked better!!!

I went to school from kindergarten through graduation with two boys that we knew were gay from day one of school (we just didn't know what you called it back then). Both came from totally heterosexual families and were not exposed to anyone or anything "gay." For me, this proves beyond a doubt that you are born homosexual.

My aunt to this day said she knew I was gay when I was about 6. When I finally came out to her in my 20s she said, "Well, so. I've known that most of your life."

S. Norell,

I disagree. Reason being: i was one of those kids who knew a lot more than most kids my age...not because i was exposed to inappropriate things...but simply because i was a pretty smart kid. I picked up on things quickly....when i was a kid, I knew there was something "different" about my uncle because he didn't "act" like most MEN i knew. He was married, had kids, etc. but i always recognized he behaved, talked, walked, etc. differently than the typical male. Apparently, it wasn't obvious to everyone because he had a WIFE and children.....and LATER came out of the closet, professing he was gay. Not a shock to me (as a child). He was a grown man so that doesn't prove my point....yes, he could've "chosen" that lifestyle.

HOWEVER, during that same time frame...i guess i was in 2nd, 3rd grade...i recognized that two boys i went to school with since kindergarten didn't "act" like the rest of the boys i knew for the same reasons. They talked differently, played differently, had female friends, etc. Did i think they were gay when i was in 2nd, 3rd grade? YES, i did. I know it seems crazy because i was so young, but at that age...i knew there was a difference, and i knew what being gay meant. I continued to go to school with these same 2 boys throughout high school...always having the same suspicions.

One of the boys "came out of the closet" during high school....the other came out after high school. This is why I truly believe people are born gay. Kids in elementary school don't even know what sexuality is....and I recognized these boys were different. So, do you think they CHOSE to be that way, "act" that way, or whatever you want to call it?

I work with children, and there is a boy right now who is 6 years old that i GUARANTEE will later profess to be gay. If he doesn't, he'll be lying. I know people will fly off the handle about me saying that of a kid...but it's true. As a person that works with kids, and has kids...I encourage boys to play dress up, experiment with make up, and I even paint my toddler boy's nails when he insists...because that's all a NORMAL part of development. At the same time, i can tell a difference between my son who cries because I won't let him play with an electric drill and a 6 year old boy who draws pictures of himself wearing dresses and insists on being in groups with ALL girls.

I know in my heart that people who are gay are born that way, and I don't think there anything in the world wrong with being gay. WHO CARES. If you don't like gays....don't sleep with them. I'm not trying to change your mind or anyone else's...I'm just sharing my experiences of why I feel this way.

Doris, I said for you wingnuts to prove it. I have years of research on my side. You don't or you wouldn't resort that thumping that Bible all the time.

Brother Early, I know we are wasting our time, but I can't help but keep trying.

According to the dictionary, lifestyle means, "the habits, attitudes, tastes, moral standards, economic level, etc., that together constitute the mode of living of an individual or group."

I haven't known a large number of homosexuals personally, but the ones I do know are teachers, a preacher (yes!), a hair technician, a respiratory therapist, a radiographer, an actor, and a radio DJ. They shop at Wal-Mart and Target just like everyone else, go out to dinner and movies with friends and family just like everyone else, help those less fortunate like everyone should, etc. Their "lifestyle" is no different than a heterosexuals.

The war progresses and I'm sure it's just a matter of time before the villagers rise to fight with us.

I'm here on the beach in Alaska looking out over the ocean at Russia thinking of painting stars on my toenails one for each of the thirteen colonies while I wonder how the war on reason against the Tennessee Taliban is progressing back in Kingsport. The antichrist is out of town, but her campaign clothes keep us warm at night.

"There is sientific proof that there are other species living in our world today. It's all over the news and in our schools so as unreal as it is. we must consider it when speaking of others."

I think you left something in the Target parking lot. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Please, I'm begging you, keep posting. Haven't laughed this hard in a while.

Love how they throw that word "lifestyle" around. LOL Typical.

There is sientific proof that there are other species living in our world today. It's all over the news and in our schools so as unreal as it is. we must consider it when speaking of others.

Lana, we're wasting our time. They keep reposting the same tired old nonsense over and over again. Once a bigot always a bigot no matter how much evidence is available. These are the same people who kept believing in the flat earth, sea monsters, geocentric universe, other races are a different species, etc., etc.

"Homosexuals are not born as homosexuals. Homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle , therefore, they do not deserve the same civil rights as Blacks or any other minority."

Prove it! I can provide mountains of evidence. You cannot. You will blather of the same antiquated garbage and lies you all always have.

It amazes me that world renowned scientists and scholars have been unable to determine the cause of many cancers, assorted diseases and disorders, or whether homosexuals are born homosexual, but we have several right here on our local newspaper forum that can prove that homosexuality is chosen (and do so without any facts whatsoever).

Actually the Bible does in fact support inbreeding. The same scripture that most preachers use to support marrying within one's on race is in fact instructions by a man to his sons to marry within the family in order that the family would grow larger and stronger. Way back then it was necessary to have a large family line to remain in power.
Just wondering, but what happened to all the Billions of people who lived before Christ was born? Do they get a shot at going to heaven too? If so, how.

"The Bible promotes to be furitful and multiply. And no, that does not mean birth control, and the other thing that cannot multiply. Breeding is between the man and the woman with blessing from Jesus to say the sex of the baby. So one cannot breed without Jesus in their heart."

THIS STUFF JUST WRITES ITSELF. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Janice Guazzo,

"I am wondering if the bible promotes inbreeding? This may explain so much of the ignorance here in these hills."

Read Genesis. ;-)

Christian Soldier,

"So one cannot breed without Jesus in their heart."


And how exactly would you explain human existence before the time of Christ?

I assure you that when each of my children were conceived Jesus was not in my heart. Funny they got here anyway.

The Bible promotes to be furitful and multiply. And no, that does not mean birth control, and the other thing that cannot multiply. Breeding is between the man and the woman with blessing from Jesus to say the sex of the baby. So one cannot breed without Jesus in their heart.

I am wondering if the bible promotes inbreeding? This may explain so much of the ignorance here in these hills.

All I can say is... wow

LOL

And The Earl of Bothwell got boiled in oil alive! At Hermatige Castle where he lived and had relations with Mary, The Queen of Scots, who rode many miles while carrying her unborn chiled.

Here we go again.

How interesting that some cite King James version of the Bible, when he was often referred to as "Queen James" (http://www.libchrist.com/other/homosexual/kingjames.html ) due to his well known escapades. And from http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/king-james.html - "In the 1580s, King James openly kissed Francis Stewart Hepburn, Earl of Bothwell. Contemporary sources clearly hinted their relationship was a sexual one. When James inherited the English throne from Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, it was openly joked of the new English monarch in London that “Elizabeth was King: now James is Queen!” If there is still any doubt, it should be noted that George Villiers, also held an intimate relationship with King James, about which King James himself was quite open. King James called Villiers his “wife” and called himself Villiers' “husband”!
It wasn't until 1946 in the Revised Standard Version that the word homosexual was used.

"Why don't people think about Gods Law Enforcement! Its one thing to break the law, but the law and catch up with you sooner more than later!"

Translation please?

Why don't people think about Gods Law Enforcement! Its one thing to break the law, but the law and catch up with you sooner more than later!

I was raise, as was Obama and Ms. California. How dumb does one have to be, indeed.

It appears hate speech is allowed to stay posted on here and only the most venomous is deleted. Of course this is only AFTER someone gets angry enought to fight back and then their post are deleted as well. I find the rantings of the wingnuts on here more than repulsive and will never understand why the Kingsport Times News would even publish the hate letter to the editor all this visciousness is directed at.

Homosexuality does violate god's law, but so does ignorance. Violation of god's laws are equal in god's eyes, but in mans' eye homosexuality clearly trumps ignorance. xtians clearly accept ignorance as a human trait (even go to great lengths to perfect it, apparently), but not homosexuality. Regardless of one's stance on homosexuality, the application of a law from whichever god you choose is irrelevant.

As for the comments by the Doris/Simmons nom de plume: the racist, homophobic, sanctimonious, delusional, god-lee rants reveal not only her identity to those of us who have followed this forum for some time, but also the general attitude of the backward, regressionist trends of the frustrated and angry religious right. An excellent example really, for those who doubt the level of ignorance and extremist thinking in our area, a benchmark of sorts, and I for one hope she will continue to post so that others may see the direction from which we are moving.

Mr. Simmons, with all due respect it is ignorant for you to suggest that the human race will disappear should we allow same-sex marriage. According to online sources, the Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 authors. As you and others have pointed out, homosexuality is addressed in the Bible, so that means that gays have been on this Earth for a minimum of several thousand years. Yet, lo and behold, the world's population has increased each and every year; we are currently at 6 billion or so souls on this planet...Wikipedia suggests that over the next 40 years, there will be 3 billion people added to the current total population. Apparently the folks who are calculating these numbers haven't heard of the gay marriage effect. You might want to correct them on that, eh? But the bottom line is this: allowing them to get "married" changes nothing concerning their lifestyle; they are just as ineffective at reproducing after marrage as they were prior to marriage.

Anyway, I also note your and others' longstanding claim that the homosexual lifestyle is a choice. So what you are saying is that you know more about a gay person than they know about themselves. Are you serious? That's a bit arrogant of you, isn't it? Does the Bible say it's a choice, and if so, can you point me to that passage?

And speaking of the Bible, our friend Mr. Starnes points out that according to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Funny...in the King James version that I read, the word homosexual is not used in that passage. I wonder which version that Mr. Starnes is quoting from, and where in the Bible does God say that it is acceptable to change His words? Oh, and in addition to the definition of "effeminate" given by Lana, it also can mean "(of a man or boy) having traits, tastes, habits, etc., traditionally considered feminine." I'm sure this is where Mr. Starnes gets his justification for word substitution, but consider that female homosexuals are already feminine. So where does this leave them? Were there not any female homosexuals living in the times when the Bible was written, or does this present a tiny little problem with Mr. Starnes' argument?

One more thing before I go. I'd wager that compared to the number of homosexuals who want to get married, there are way more married heterosexuals who commit adulterous affairs. Thus it would seem that these acts affect a heck of a lot more people, considering the broken homes and the emotional toll it takes on the victims. And, what does cheating on your wife or husband say about "the sanctity of marriage"???? Adultery is a sin, is it not? It's also a choice, is it not? After all, someone on here recently said that it is a choice to commit sin. So, Mr. Simmons and Mr. Starnes, why are you not pushing for state and federal laws that make adultery a crime?

Mr. Gary Simmons

You are truly giving Christians a bad name. Please quit quoting The Holy Bible to your convinience. True Christians dont judge the way you do. True Christians and followers of Jesus love one another. Your comments towards gay people and towards hispanics or "Latinos" as you call them are racist and hurtfull. If you were a true Christian you would know that. I think you are hiding behing the name of religion to spread your hatred and racism.

Were you taught this behavior from your parents or did you learn this racist behavior in your walk thru life. I hope that if you have children of your own you have not brain-washed them to think this is Christian like behaviour.

I beg you to reconsider calling yourself a Christian because this is not helping us one bit!!

!

Some people on here are truly psychologically ill and need help. So, if some woman hits on me do I get to go insane and start screaming that's she's trying to recruit me? LOLOL

Mr. Simmons,

If our only purpose for sexual pairing were to multiply humans would have seasons.

I'm sorry but that argument doesn't hold water.

And I'm sorry you feel homosexuals were trying to recruit you while you were in college. But maybe you put off a vibe and they were simply trying to help you be more comfortable with yourself.

Brother Early,

I decided to take the simplest approach in attempting to explain how genetics affect the traits we are born with. My hope was that in doing so it would open the door to better understanding.

Kajen,

I appreciate your view, but I appreciate more your willingness to try to understand the views of others.

You mention that you have a sister living in the closet. I hope that however she decides to live her life she is able to find peace and happiness within herself. And should she choose to come out of the closet I hope that her loved ones are able to see that she is still the same person she always was, just that she has decided to be herself. I also hope that you are able to set the example of acceptance, tolerance, and unconditional love.

Kajen, I would suggest the first step in understanding is take it as a given the gay and lesbian people are not lying when talking about themselves, their struggles, the backgrounds, or the self assessments. We, myself included, and struggled with ourselves, our families, friends, communities, and worse of all the church to simply accept who we were born as.

Joking aside, I’m going to gracefully exit the conversation. But before I do, I just wanted to thank you Brother Early as well as Mr. and Ms. Neely for being able to express your views without staying mad or frustrated at me consistently, if that in fact happened. If it didn’t I’ll just pretend it was so. :)

And if I entered the conversation pushy, arrogant and offensive, my apologies to you.

I do plan on gaining a better understanding, as best I can with limited resources and quite frankly limited ability, of your views and appreciate your thoughts on them.

Thanks again.

Stop it, I got the point. Just didn’t get it the first time around.

LOLOL Sorry, Kajen I get a bit frustrated trying to explain something I see as a very simplistic but complex process at the same time. I'm not a biologist either. My training is in Anthropology.

I never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed.

As a matter of fact, my wife claims I'm pretty dull.

You're also still making the same error of assumption of a single "gay gene" instead of a combination of genes. If it was, as you suggest with your hypothesis, a single gene then it would occur with far less frequency than it does. Even at wingnut number of 1% (wrong) suggests development along the lines of multiple genes. When you have certain genes in a certain combination, bingo. You're also making the incorrect assumption of "all or none." For some reason people think in terms or all gay or all straight. Sexuality is a continuum.

Wow. I think I'll need to draw a picture. I even used the example of how Alexander was responsible for dispersing Greek genes throughout the Middle East. How about the simple fact that we have contributed amazing amounts to humanity and helped the species survive. It's about survival of the species; not about one individual. The ENTIRE species does contribute. Are you telling me the ONLY contribution any human being makes to survival of the whole is sex? For some reason the wingnuts can't stand to admit the powerful force gays and lesbians have played throughout history.

Ms. Neely,

That makes sense to me. Like I said, it is not my expertise.

Brother Early was speaking in tongues…

Bad attempt at a joke I guess.

Thanks

By the way, I have a sister in the closet. I just needed to see an explanation in words that made better sense to me. No offense Brother Early, many things go over my head.

Kajen,

I guess you've never heard of living in the closet?

Of course a hereditary gene would have the chance to be inherited, as many homosexuals try to lead heterosexual lives. Many even have opposite gender spouses and children.

Also, genetics doesn't necessarily work the way you seem to think. Not all genetic material is passed strictly from parent to child, but a child can have traits of grandparents and even aunts and uncles.

So really, there is no way to breed out homosexuality. It has always been a part of existance and it always will be.

Mr Neely,

What it boils down to is a bunch of buck passing. We throw the burden of proof on each other. Why though, to use the figure from the article, should 99% of the populace bear the burden of proof when challenged by the 1%? I agree, appealing to the masses is not of sound reasoning in most cases, but can’t be discounted in all. Because one would have to take into account the great thinkers involved within that 99%. The philosophers, the scientists, the men and women who have devoted their lives to discovering the truth. Unless of course you want to theorize that those people only belong to the 1% which you would have to agree is stretching it a bit.

The argument does ultimately fail in part because the masses seem to go along with what is popular, and we know, popularity changes as time moves forward. 100 years from now, your view may be the popular one and then what. Does the burden of proof fall upon you then? When does the burden of proof fall to your side, to my side?

What I’ve seen in this debate is actually the flip side. Ad hominen assaults on my views from others. Discredit me personally, so they don’t have to take into account the substance of the argument. I understand those who feel that there is no substance and maybe they have a problem articulating that. But those that personally attack others simply just want to avoid the debate, which doesn’t do either any good. I’m not throwing that on you, but as you read over the thread it is evident, not just from your view, but from those who adhere to mine too.

It really works both ways. If either of us wants to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, either way, I think he burden proof falls upon both parties, yours to negate and mine to support.

I can present scientific evidence but it is automatically assumed to be “fundie” information and rhetoric. I bet most disregard it without even considering it as soon as they see the source. Rather than discrediting from where the info is pulled, we should be discrediting the info, should it need to be.

And that’s okay I suppose. I don’t suspect those participating in this discussing will resolve any of the issues here and now.

This was way too long and I don’t know if I was able to convey my thoughts properly…

Brother Early,

“It's about alteration in gene frequency through out the species.”

I guess that is where you lost me. Biology is not my expertise, as you can tell, but if one is strictly homosexual and does not reproduce, how are the genes carried into the next generation? Is there external manipulation, perhaps environmental factors that also come into play to allow the alteration in gene frequency?

Isn’t Natural Selection a major mechanism of evolution?

Don’t you need heritable genetic variation and isn’t that passed on through reproducing? And if that is the case, shouldn't the gene or genes progress or regress towards extinction or non existence rather than growth.

I guess that’s where I’m stuck. I know, not your responsibility to pull me out, I’m still trying to get a basic understanding. Just throwing my thoughts out there.

Mr. Simmons,

I have never had a homosexual try to "recruit" me (as you say) to his or her lifestyle.

I have however had lots of "Christians" knock on my door, come up to me on the street, and approach me in my vehicle to try to convert me to their religion and to attending their church.

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle, it is just a sexual orientation. Nothing more nothing less. Homosexuals are born gay, and there is absolutely no reason for them to make themselves miserable because you think it's a sin.

Christianity on the other hand... That is a lifestyle that people do choose. And a lot of people don't choose it. Whatever, to each his own. But you don't get to decide all by yourself who gets to be happy with who they are because you read something in a book.

Recurited! LOLOLOLOL I can't believe you still push that idiocy. LOLOLOL

In my view, the basic purpose of all life is to survive and reproduce. Everything beyond that is just extra depending on the species. It seems to me that if we allow homosexuals to live their lifestyle and not try to force them to interbreed with heterosexuals that eventually their breed will be come extinct. It seems to me that those who want a strictly heterosexual society should see this and say "Go for it".

Oh, and the other fundamental mistake you're making is assuming being gay is because of a single gene. Most likely, based on the research, it is a combination of genes. Perhaps my creative genes and my sense of style genes just came together to produce ME. LOL

Kajen, you are making the usual mistake of assuming evolution is about passing of genetic material from one individual on to the next generation. It's about alteration in gene frequency through out the species. Over centuries beyond counting gays and lesbians have been HUGE contributors for the species to spread genetic material and subtle genetic mutations from one population pocket to another. Alexander the Great alone was responsible for spreading Macedonian/Greek genetic material all the way to India. Look at the lost list of historic gays and lesbians and you might understand how we contribute to the survival of the human species.

Mr. Neely,

I have read the article you recommended and would like to respond but it will have to be later. (as if you are looking forward to it)

I do have a question for a few of the evolutionist participating.

I would like your view (as much as can be put forth in this venue anyhow) on how homosexuality plays into natural selection and whether or not it puts a species at a disadvantage to adapt as well as vastly reduces the chances of a new species to emerge.

I honesty don’t mean anything by the question other than to ask so please, don’t take offense to it.

"The fact is simply that homosexuality is a crime against nature even if you do not believe in God. However, homosexuality is genetic rather than a chosen lifestyle."

How can something that is genetic be a crime against nature? If it is coded in the genes it is, by default, natural since genes are the mechanism which biological information is transmitted in the natural world. The fact that homosexual activity occurs in multiple natural species makes it very natural.

David

And as has been stated, the burden of proof lies on the believers. Science has NO business in attempting to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being. But I've said this over and over again here but it's a waste of time on the sheep.

Typical how the wingnut Bible bangers stoop so low they will even alter linguistic history to suit their purposes. Anyone who wants to do a little research can look up Elohim and find out the truth. The stories of the Bible didn't develop in a vacuum but were integrated from other cultures, both ancestry of the Israelites (Sumerian & Assyrian) and neighboring societies.

Wonder how the discussion of homosexuality became a religious dispute as to whether there is a God or not? The fact is simply that homosexuality is a crime against nature even if you do not believe in God. However, homosexuality is genetic rather than a chosen lifestyle. One does not choose one's sexual orientation. One only controls his or her actions on such orientation. If you are a homosexual, you are a homosexual and no religious belief will change you from being one. You can choose to remain celibate or you can find a like homosexual and act on your desires. What you choose to do is no one's business. The thing that makes our country great is the fact that no one can force their religious beliefs on another. You are allowed to have your beliefs but it is wrong for you to try to persecute others who do not hold the same beliefs as you.

Mr Neely, I’m not sure how long we can continue in this venue, but I will do this, I will look at the link you have provided.

Mr Taylor, Still not worth responding to.

"...prove scientifically that He does not exist." Again, as Mr. Neely stated: The burden of proof is on those that make extraordinary claims. Faith is belief without reason. Humans have created so many different versions of a paradise after death, and the ways and means to get there. It seems to be many human's most terrifying reality to face, that the precious short amount of consciousness we are so lucky to have here at this moment will one day end. Death seems to become so much easier for many folks to face if there is a thought of a new beginning in some other realm. To me, its the epitome of selfishness, to live an entire human life only hoping for the next. A hope only based on a book of scribbles, now that we have absolute proof that there have been many different religions years before Christianity, to so many different gods, that so many people worked for a lifetime to please. But, of course, their gods were the wrong gods, and they were just crazy to have done so.

I would like to add before someone tries to bring it up that my reference to my belief was made in error. Even the best of us sometimes makes a slip. This statement in no way is meant to advocate that atheism is a belief system. A belief does not rely on factual evidence. The correct term should have been my philosophical point-of-view.

David

Mr. Flanagan,

In all honesty I am not here to convert you to my belief. I take a much simpler approach. I am here to provide a counter-point to the arguments used by the believer. I cannot convince you that the argument is valid. I can only provide information and let you make that decision yourself. The majority of my replies are not intended for you at all. They are intended for other people who deserve to see all the information available and make up their own minds. It is what being a freethinker is all about. I have the same kind of discussions with my children. I provide all the information I can and then ask them what they think about it.

The fact that you miss the irony of using a religious zealot (Darth Vader) to attempt to prove the validity of your point and why its OK to think that way amazes me.

On proof: You might want to read the link I gave Kajen. The burden of proof is on you because you are the one making extraordinary claims.

"Another note to you Mr. Neely, I am not arrogant by any means. I simply expressed my remorse for you in how miserable you must be having nothing to believe in."

Of course, it is arrogance. Its the arrogance of thinking that since I do not believe in god, an obviously inferior decision to yours according to you, that I must be miserable. I can guarantee you that I am not.

David

Mr. Taylor and Mr. Neely,

I would challenge you to prove scientifically that He does not exist. What say you that?

You have all touted scientific information. And don't get me wrong, I take the commentary in all respects. However, you have offered me nothing to prove that He (God) does not exist either.

Kajen,

I don't have to prove that god does not exist. You have to prove that god exist. The burden of proof is on those that make extraordinary claims. I only need to prove that your arguments fail. You might want to read on the burden of proof when it claims to the difference between atheist and theist. Try here:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_parsons/mcinerny.html

I do thank you for the compliment. I do my best to present arguments for the point and not the person.

David

Its awful nice of you to compliment Mr. Neely's "perspective." Mr. Neely has placed, in the simplest of terms, an absolute truth that entirely discredits your fantasies. Gravity is a cute distraction used by quite a few folks in an attempt to "prove" faith. Gravity is a theory that can be tested, with consistent results. Your god, on the other hand, can only be tested and proven within the confines of your own skull. While I, and many others here, appreciate the attention and simplicity that Mr. Neely has attempted to place in front of you, its quite sad that it all is taken as nothing more than another "belief" or non-belief. How absurd of anyone to attempt to prove any god's existence with our earth and those who inhabit it.

Mr. Neely and Mr. Early,

Equally so, can either one of you "empirically" prove that God does not exist?

Mr. Neely,
I used a fictional character to represent a non-fictoinal character (the believers) who believe in Christ who is also non-fictional. It is called personafication in literature. Thus, I used an imaginary character to potray something real. There is not irony in that. Only your skepticism and disbelief, which is fine. I respect your stance on the topic as well you should mine.

I concur with Kajen in the fact that just because you do not see something does not mean it is there. I don't see you per say, yet I know that you are their because you respond to me. Does that you make you unreal or non-existent? No, just because I don't see you and you are not tangible to me right now does not mean that you don't exist. The same is true of God. I assure you that He is real. I would bet my life on it.

Also, there is no scientific data or explanation to date that cannot factually prove that God does not exist or that He did not create the existence of all things. So your arguement is a mute point and I am afraid for now we are in virtual standoff as it appears.

Another note to you Mr. Neely, I am not arrogant by any means. I simply expressed my remorse for you in how miserable you must be having nothing to believe in. You only supported my point by taking my condolences as arrogance. You expressed sympathy previously to me and I graciously returned it to you as I do not need sympathy. I am quite happy with what God has given to me and done for me in my life.

And yes, we were endowed by the Creator to serve Him. However, He gave us the free will of choice to choose whether or not we would serve him.

To Mr. Early,

Elohim is a Hebrew word meaning more than one God which is representative of The Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) for they are one and the the same.


To Mr. Neely,

I will never relent and give up proclaiming that God is real. There is absolutely nothing that you can say or do to convince me otherwise.

I will continue to exercise my rights and express my points of view as I see fit. Just as I am definitely certain you will continue to tout your as well.

And just for the record, I have never asserted that you must believe simply because I’ve said so. I will however uphold the fact that God says we are without excuse.

Mr Neely,

Believe it or not, I appreciate your stern yet honest rebuke of my beliefs. At least you, and some others, are presenting an intellectual view of your perspectives.

Although I’ll remain in objection with your perspective, I do thank you for your input. If you can believe that or not. I wish others would consider you as an example when presenting their viewpoint.

Mr Neely,

“Does my not choosing to believe in gravity make gravity not work? Of course not.”

Then you must at least hold fast to your own rationalization that just because you don’t believe in God, doesn’t mean He isn’t there.

I think that’s what you don’t want to admit. You cannot prove that God is not there.

Mr. Flanagan,

You cannot utilize an imaginary character to prove anything. It is simply not possible to use something that is not real to prove that something is real. The irony is that you don't seem to understand that a fictional character believing in a fictional force does not prove anything at all. Its all a fiction.

Mr. Flanagan and Kajen.

The simple fact that the universe exists is not proof of anything other than the simple fact that the universe does exist. The fact that there are birds, planets and various other things are proof of god if, and only if, you presuppose the existence of god. The things of the world are explainable without god and therefore you do not need god to explain them.

Mr Flanagan,
I am not here to please god. If god exist and he is needs me to please him then he is not worthy of being called a god. A god that needs something that humans provide is not a god. It is a parasite.

The argument that both of you are using is so childish and breaks down to the same thing you have tried before. You have to believe in god because we said so (believers). God will show you and then you will see. What a ridiculous way to use your mind?

One other comment directed towards you Mr. Flanagan. Your arrogance in assuming that I cannot be happy because I do not follow your god is incredible. I am very happy and I do not need god for that.

Finally, the statement that believing in god is a personal choice makes it a subjective thing with no objective reality. Does my not choosing to believe in gravity make gravity not work? Of course not. The difference between objective and subjective means that one is reliant on perception (choice) and one is not.

If neither one of you can provide a better argument then perhaps you should stop trying.

David

point taken.

Call it "evidence of God" when it's no such thing. It is a subjective viewpoint only.

Elohim, the Canaanite word for the creator gods who supposedly created the world from Mount Zephon. LOL Amazes me how earlier civilization's mythology permeates ancient Judaism.

That’s the difference isn’t it? God may not be tangible but I think the evidence of God is.

I said SUBJECTIVE BIAS. You are assuming the existence of God PRIOR to your oberservation. Therefore it is not OBJECTIVE.

I don't disagree Kajen, but it's not my "mission" in life to prove the existence or lack thereof of any supernatural being. As someone trained in science it would be utter lunacy to attempt such a thing considering the presumption of a supernatural hand in nature violates the first precept of science. “Faith” needs to stay where it belongs; in the home and churches.

Mr. Early,

Subjective bias has nothing to do with it. Objective data (i.e.- the Earth, all living things) are proof that He exists.

However, to know Him is done subjectively. Because, faith by it's very defintion is subjective. Faith is believing in things no yet seen. At some point those things that are not seen will be seen. And the time is drawing closer every day.

It is even stated that "without faith it is impossible to please Him". You cannot possibly ever know Him unless you come to know Him through faith. It is not subjective bias but rather a personal choice. You either choose to believe or not to believe in the existence of God. It is really that simple.

But one day, I assure you, as much as I am real, my God (Elohim) will reveal Himself one day for all to see and all will know that He is indeed real. However, if you deny His existence now, you will miss out on knowing Him then.

So it is not subjective bias, rather a personal choice that each one of us has been given the right to choose.

No foam intended.

Brother Early, God cannot be negated through objective data either, only through subjective bias.

And before the foam starts flowing I'm not commenting either way on the existence of God. I'm just saying you can't prove it empirically.

No, Mr. Flannagan, God cannot be proven through "objective" data but only through SUBJECTIVE bias.

Mr. Neely,

I used a fictional character (i.e.-Darth Vader) who believed in a mystical force (which again is fictional) to paint a portrait that religion does not have to objective in nature for one to know that it is real. Yes, air can be seen through objective data. However, God can be seen through all of creation. The plants, the birds, the sky, the atomosphere. All of this are His works. So if you want objective data that he exists, well then that is merely the beginning of proof of His existence. The fact that you are alive today is proof of His existence.

There is plenty of objective data. However, one can only know Him (His spirit) subjectively as it not seen or measured but felt by one's inner soul when one has come to know Christ. If you consistently reject His existence and refuse to believe that He is real and that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, then you can never experience the joy of knowing what true life is.

Don't feel sorry for me my friend. On the contrary, it is I who feel remorse for you and what you are missing out on in life. One day, you will see (and I think that day will be very soo), that God is definitely real.

Is congress a church now?? I missed that.

David, it's sad to think of how badly we're wasting our breath here. Only simple answers for the simple minded work. It's easier for them to believe the garbage the morons in the pulpits spout about the fall of the Empire than the complicated facts that led to the fragmentation, split and final fall. They always fail to recognize how the church itself was one of the biggest contributors to the final collapse of the Western half of the Empire. How they sucked up resources in massive amounts and drained the remnants of the Empire and making it vulnerable to outside attacks and fragmentation into Feudal Europe. But in reality the Empire didn't completely fall but changed in form to the Church itself.

Ms Kennedy, I know of few good churches right here in Kingsport that drive around within and get out into the community, but, so many people detest that. Just read the thread.

Welcome back Mr Taylor. Not worth responding to.

Mr. Neely, I perceive you to be an intelligent man. And I can even take you at your word that you are a caring person. I don’t believe I said that you were not. I was insinuating, that it shouldn’t matter who provides the needs. You should be willing to give freely to any reputable organization, church or otherwise, whoever can actually provide what is needed to those who need it. You automatically write off someone who can really help because they are a church organization. By the way, faith is actually a gift from God. He bestows His gifts upon those He chooses. But just because it lacks in you now, doesn’t mean it will always.

Brother Early, just because they are an atheist organization, I don’t rule them out. I honestly haven’t contributed to one, but then again, none have called on me either.

"There is a historical answer...known to those of the Roman Empire who faced the same degradation of their society...but oh, yeah, shortly after their moral compass went south, the empire fell!"

As I posted in another comment on this forum.

Rome did not fall because of homosexuals.

1. Christianity Over time, Church leaders became influential and took away power from the emperor. Christian beliefs conflicted with the working of empire.

2. Barbarians and Vandals Rome embraced the barbarian but also lost territory and revenue to them, especially Carthaginian Africa, which they lost to the Vandals.

3. Decay One can spot decay in many areas going back to the crises of the Republic under the Gracchi, Sulla and Marius, but in the imperial period and in the military it meant men were no longer trained right and the invincible Roman army was no longer.

4. Inflation By the time of Claudius II Gothicus (268-270 A.D.) the amount of silver in a supposedly 100% silver denarius was only .02%. This led to or was severe inflation, depending on how you define inflation.

5. Lead The presence of lead in the drinking water leached in from the water pipes, from glazes, and food preparation could have contributed to heavy metal poisoning. Lead was associated with contraception and recognized as a deadly poison.

6. Economic factors are cited as a major cause of the fall of Rome. Some of the major factors, like inflation, are discussed elsewhere. But there were also lesser problems with the economy of Rome that combined together to escalate financial stress.

7. Division of the Empire The Roman Empire was split not just geographically, but culturally, with a Latin Empire and a Greek one, the latter of which may have survived because it had most of the population, a better military, more money, and better rule.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fallofrome/tp/022509FallofRomeReasons.htm

Get your facts straight before you starting screaming about them

David

When it becomes "politically correct" to support and endorse those who practice an act that even the most erstwhile supporter has to admit is "unnatural," then it is clear that one is only "political," not "correct." What have we come to as a society? There is a historical answer...known to those of the Roman Empire who faced the same degradation of their society...but oh, yeah, shortly after their moral compass went south, the empire fell! Guess we all have something to look forward to!

Mr. Flanagan,

Do you realize the every character in Star Wars and fictional and therefore don't believe in god. The irony is far greater than you have any clue about. You are using a fictional account of a fictional character to support the existence of another fictional character. The supposed belief in the force in Star Wars is just as relevant as the belief in god from the bible. Its simply amazing that you would seek to use one to prove the other.

On the subject of things unseen.its not a matter of being unseen. Air is unseen but I know that it exist because of its effect on other things. You can measure it. You can actually feel it. It has existence outside your own perception. What is lacking in religion is evidence of any kind that is not purely subjective. Subjective means coming from the mind. All religious experience falls into subjective perception and has no actual validity in the real world in which we live.

I am saddened that you feel that you are a pawn in a mystical battle that you cannot see. Its must really suck to be at the mercy of forces battling in realms unseen and unproven other than to the believer.

David

How convenient.

Mr. Neely,

Just pointing out that just because you do not see something, it does not mean that it does not exist. The existence of God just as the existence of Satan goes beyond the logical and physical realm of understanding. There is a spiritual realm that really does exist between good and evil. I was merely pointing out by using Darth Vader as Lucas did in the film Star Wars. Even the evil or darkside knows that God truly exists.

It is not ironic to use such a character. His faith in the "all powerful force" was real for all practical purposes. It contained a hidden meaning that just because we don't see something, it does not mean that it does not exist. There is a real God just as their is a real Satan and there is a real spiritual battle between good and evil going on unseen in the spiritual realm. You just have to open your mind and heart to believe, know and see. It is composed of everything around you.

As for judgement, I leave that to God. I merely respect His laws and commandments.

But I thought Darth Vader was a good character to use. Although, I could have drawn on any character. I just wanted to show that even evil (the dark side) knows its real. Satan even knows he is real. He (Satan) knows God is real as well. Logic, fact and scientific explanations backing every situation will result in ultimate human failure. Some things do require faith in this life.

Wow Mr. Flanagan,

Are you actually trying to use Darth Vader as an example of why I should believe. You do realize that there is not a better example of a religious zealot waging a war against people who do not believe the way he does that does available in modern culture. He went so far as to destroy whole planets to serve the needs of his religious beliefs. He was even willing to sacrifice his own children. Do you realize the sheer irony of using such a character to convince me to believe is incredible.

You then relied on the sad but often used method of insisting that I need to believe to believe. As I posted in a previous reply it is circular reasoning of the worst kind. Yes, Mr. Flanagan I rely on silly things like reality to justify believing instead of relying on fictional and/or purely subjective proofs.


You then tried the stick approach. Evidently, I am supposed to believe because if I do not the god is gonna smack me.

As a defender of god you have to be one of most miserable failures I have ran across. Really. Trying to use such a magnificent example of religious evil as Darth Vader to show me the error of my ways. It's really sad. Evidently, the god who is so involved in everything cannot find a better spokesperson than you.

If god is so offended by me then why does he not take care of it himself?

David.

Mr. Neely,

To quote a famous line, "I find your lack of faith quite disturbing". Who said that, Darth Vader. If you recall the scene from Star Wars in the Death Star where the man was being choked by Darth Vader for his lack of faith to prove that "The Force" was real but their was not factual data to prove it. Although, that was sci-fi, it proves a point that all things don't have to be logical, scientific or factual to exist. Sometimes having faith, hope and understanding are enough to go on to know that there is a higher power behind everything. But you fail in the category as you try to apply logic and fact to everything. You sometimes have to go on faith and believe in those things not seen to know that The Creator (God) truly does exist and He will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him out.

But you have to have faith for it is by His grace through faith that we are saved. If you choose not to believe through faith, then you can never know God. But I assure you, He is very real and is involved in every aspect of our lives. We just have the ability to choose Him or reject Him. He leaves that up to us.

And if you need factual proof and wait to find out, I am certain that very soon (in the not so distant future) that you will have all of the factual proof you will need. But then, it may be too late. For you soul's sake, I hope not. But, there is factual proof that is constantly refuted now and one day soon there will be actual proof as it will be eyewitnessed.

God is indeed in all things. I know that this is off topic. But I cannot sit idely by and let you offend God and act like He is not real just because you do not believe in Him. That is your choice and I respect that. But I do have to stand for what God in whom I believe.

I hope that someday you will come to know Him as well.

Kajen, got a couple of good Atheist charities you might want to give to. Interested?

“The principles fail every test of logical and scientific thinking.”

And they will continue to fail where faith is lacking and hearts are hard. If you would care to soften your heart, and truly have an open mind, religion would begin to pass test after test."

Aah. The other standard assumption of the believer. The assumption that since I do not believe in god that I am an uncaring, cynical and hard-hearted person. The reality is just the opposite as anyone who knows me can tell you. I have been told that I am one of the most caring and considerate people that someone has met. I am this way because I actually care about people. I care about people because I care about people and not because god told me I should or the threat of punishment it I do not.

You are also promoting the standard circular reasoning of the believer as well. You have to have faith to believe and if you believe then you will have faith. Having faith in something without reason and evidence is explicitly irrational.

David

"...and truly have an open mind, religion would begin to pass test after test." That has to be one of the more hilarious statements concerning religion I've heard in a long while. Ah, just throw out the facts, the evidence, all the hard work by the men and women who have dedicated their lives to the advancement of our species, and just believe in the fairy tales. Have some faith that Santa has a beautiful workshop at the North Pole, and that takes care of that, too.

Kajen B, where exactly did I say I would only help those in need here? My point was that you constantly hear of church groups travelling to foreign countries (usually at a major cost) to give food, clothing, and medicine to the needy. How often do you hear of church groups driving around their own neighborhood giving out food, clothing, and medicine to the needy? We have just as many needy here as any other country. I can't believe you would criticize someone for wanting to help an elderly neighbor buy needed medication and/or food or help buy clothes for a local family whose home has burned down. Are you giving to truly help people or are you giving to make your church and/or yourself look good? Have you met any of the people you help? Do you even know how exactly your contributions are being used? Of course, it is much easier to simply write a check and not worry about it. By the way, I no longer teach Sunday School. Our church was destroyed by greed. People who were more concerned with looking good than doing good.

Mr. Douglas, I was actually waiting for that to come up and I knew it would be you who first mentioned it. Par for the course for you so that’s all I’ll mention regarding that.

Brother Early, Like I’ve said before, there is no perfect church. But there are reputable churches that do help. Fact is there are reputable and not so reputable non-Christian based charities too. But your decision is based on belief, not who can help and who is being helped.

Mr. Neely, the boasting was being done by Mr. Douglas. Time and time again he has made clear what a good person he is and that nobody has suffered as much as him. Pretty bold statements. I’m not abrogating anything, my religion helps define my responsibilities.

Ms. Kennedy, is that what you tell your congregation? You’re not giving to help someone in need because it needs to be done here first. What does it matter where the individual is located? It is still a person in need of help.

Back to Mr. Neely:

“The principles fail every test of logical and scientific thinking.”

And they will continue to fail where faith is lacking and hearts are hard. If you would care to soften your heart, and truly have an open mind, religion would begin to pass test after test.

Mr. Jones,

I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist household. I am very intimate with the bible. So I can tell you with conviction that god is absent. Your assumption, which a lot of believers have, is that if I really knew about god then I would believe in god. Of course, such assumptions are standard with believers.

Yes, being a rational and thinking person I can say with determination that god is absent. There is nothing rational about religion. Its very fundamental principles are contra-rational. The principles fail every test of logical and scientific thinking. So, my good sir, you can take your assumption about my knowledge of the bible and place it in the correct location.

David

I am one of those that do not give to churches. Why? Because I have seen first hand how most of the money is used. Fancy pew pads for their million dollar churches, trips to Dollywood, etc. for church members, and so on and so on. I am active in my community and know (or can find out) who is in need. I know there are those in need in other countries, but there are those in need in our own country and in our own communities as well. There was a time when people turned to a church first in their time of need. There is a reason they no longer do this.

Mr. David Neely

I suggest you spend some time reading the Bible. Since you are such a hard worker then reading the Bible should be no task at all for you. Then tell me God is absent. God is not absent and he does effect us all in one way or another. If you consider yourself a rational thinking man then can you really say God is not around in everything?

"It is off topic like Jeremy said, but what is the point in giving if you do it so you can brag about it?"

I'm sorry but that is nonsense.

I said nothing about giving to people so you can brag about it. I said that it was better to be appreciative for the people who actually did the work instead of giving all the credit to god. All the good things that are performed on this planet is done by people. God is absent in his involvement and to pretend otherwise is to deny who actually does the hard work.

"It shouldn't matter what "price tag" it comes with. If your motives are to help, then help."

According to this mindset you should not care what part of your money goes for as long as part of it helps. Sheer, unadulterated nonsense. You should always care what is done in your name at every level. If bad things are done in your name and you don't care or take an interest the you are just as much to blame as the person who did the evil. Stop abrogating your responsibilities in the name of religion.

David

A lot of the Christian charities have alternative motives to giving. I have witnessed first hand this attitude. One "church" was signing people up for a food basket but the receiver had to come to the church and receive it and get up before the congregation and testify how the "gift" helped them and their family the following Sunday. Another who was giving school supplies at their church required all the recipients to come to a special service first before they could receive the "gift". One very large church makes recipients jump through hoops for help and treats the individuals like bums if they ask for help, questioning every aspect of their lives, demonizing them and giving them a heavy dose of guilt. Some of these "churches" act like they're selling condos in Boca instead of doing things to help individuals and communities.

You people just blow me away.

You question my every move, including the most recent accusation of spending WAY too much time posting comments here, and questioning how I could do that plus work more than 60 hours a week.

I've been openly accused of lying, of being a god-hater, of being an Atheist, of being a homosexual, of being on a "pity pot" (whatever that is), of being everything but the antichrist.

Yet the cloak of faux christianity still is draped around your holy selves.

Now that I've vaguely described a few of my other activities, just to show I don't spend all my time sitting here at my computer waiting to ambush anyone who posts here, you accuse me of giving "a full detailed description of what he does."

AND to add insult to injury, that short list of vague examples of things I do have been dismissed as "glorifying myself!!!!!"

I believe one of you good christian folk described it as "dung."

Gosh. I feel so washed in the flood of good christian love here.

I suppose the two of you - or the two sides of your one personality, in case there's only one of you as I suspect - are extremely proud of one of your own this morning - Scott P. Roeder.

You probably believe he's a hero.

That's just about your style.

For now, I'm finished with you - or the two of you - or whatever you are.

I'm sure you'll find all new ways to insult me in my absence, and then wrap yourself in your holy cloak and pretend to be oh, so good and godly.

You ain't fooling nobody but yourself.

The rest of the world sees you clearly.

You need to understand that.

It is off topic like Jeremy said, but what is the point in giving if you do it so you can brag about it?

It shouldn't matter what "price tag" it comes with. If your motives are to help, then help.

If I showed up at you door and said I'm from so and so church. We are planning a mission trip to such and such to take medical aid and food to sick, starving people, would you give? I would assume not. Who loses in this situation, me or the hungry and sick?

It’s not a cruel statement to make. It’s what you all have made me believe based on your comments. If it has anything to do with church and God, no matter how helpful it may be, you won’t support it.

Actually, it is none of my business what Mr. Douglas does with his time. However, I was merely pointing out the fact as he has so many times that he works 60 hour weeks, working two jobs, and now has given me a full detailed description of what he does. Okay, that is fine and well. It just strikes me as odd that one would have the time to allocate on so many articles and to be so quick to undermine other's opinions to astute his own.

As for what he has been through, I can empathize with that. We (meaning all humans) have been through a lot. But at some point we have to get off of our "pitty pot" and act more grown up about things and express things in a mature manner.

Finally, as working with the elderly, homeless, poor, etc., etc. That is all that I've been doing for the last ten years. I've been with many families where the children are grown, have the time to spend with their elderly parents but are too caught up in their own lives to really care. It's very sad. I've sent money to total strangers who were stranded and homeless just so that they could get food and transportation to a shelter to get out of the elements of a big city. Let's see how many more ways I can glorify myself as well....Nah....I believe I will remain an anonymous and faithful giver. Any work done for glorification might as well be counted as, well should I say, "dung".

Either do it "true of heart" or don't do it at all. But don't boast about it to prove a point. All Christians are not alike. I don't go knocking on people's doors, forcing my views down other's throats. I don't believe in any of that.

However, I do believe and again just express my firm personal belief that "Homosexuality" is against "God's Law". That is how it has always been and always will be. It does not matter what anyone on this Earth believes. It is pure fact given by God (Elohim), Himself.

It would be nice if everyone would just stick to the topic of the article instead of straying everywhere else.

With that said, I wish you all well.

Kajen, that is not only a cruel remark it is also untrue. It is true some of us won't give to Christian charities because the "gifts" to those in need come with a price tag, but there are many, many, many secular charitable organizations working with individuals and communities.

It was a Christian effort, after all it was a mission or did you overlook that?

Regarding: "They did not do that because they were Christian, which is incidentally irrelevant to who processed it, they did it because they get paid to do it."

Paid from Christian donations.

Would you donate to a church so they could take medical needs to the less fortunate? No you would not. You would leave them to suffer I imagine.

Kajen,

You specifically brought the subject of the missionaries into this forum as a supposed example of God At Work. I simply pointed out that people actually did the work instead of god.

On the subject of those who collected the blood, clarified it and shipped. They did not do that because they were Christian, which is incidentally irrelevant to who processed it, they did it because they get paid to do it.

On the subject of hospitals. Did medical care not exist outside a hospital. Of course, it did, but it took Christianity to tie it to religion.

David

Finally! You see the light!

Why did it take you so long?

Of COURSE, I've suffered more than anyone, and I'm a much better person than anyone else I know!

Thank you for the recognition.

I am humbled by your admission, however late in coming it may be.

Jeremy,

Don’t you know by now that Mr. Douglas has suffered more than anyone and does more charity work than anyone?

He said so himself on many occasions.

Thanks for the encouragement.

You still harping on how much time I spend on here?

Got nothing better to do?

I have some suggestions for you - you could do some of the things I do in the hours I'm not working (and not posting comments here): you could help the poor, you could feed the hungry, you could give rides to the elderly and infirm when they need to go to the doctors, or you could simply go sit and talk - but mostly listen - to an elderly person whose family has no time to spend with her.

Those are probably silly things to those of you who merely preach, but to those of us who actually DO something, and to those we help, those things are very important.

You seem to think I do nothing but sit at my computer just waiting for someone to post so I can refute whatever they say.

That could not be further from the truth. But I don't owe you an explanation of my time or money.

It just irks me when holier-than-thou people point accusing fingers at others, while failing to clean up their own back yards.

I've spent a grand total of about 18 minutes on this web site today.

Sometimes I spend more than that, and sometimes less.

I do not have to answer to you or anyone else, unless you have to start paying my bills.

Since I do work two jobs and do a lot of volunteer work and pay for my computers and my DSL and electricity, I don't see how it's any of your business what I do.

If the hosts don't like my comments, they will strike them.

Based on the huge numbers of said comments, I don't think they've stricken any of them - except those I've asked to have taken off.

Have fun cleaning out your own back yard.

Both of your personalities!

Sorry Kajen,

I was directing my last post towards Mr. Oliver. He seems to have way too much time on his hands for someone that works over sixty hours a week.

However, your postings (and I am referring to Kajen here), are just fine. You are doing an excellent job. Keep up the good fight. I in no way intended that last comment I made toward you Kajen. I simply hit, "submit" before I realized that it was not addressed to the appropriate individual.

Semper Fidelis!

Good work, Kajen.

That's what I thought.

They shouldn't be entitled to lifes basic needs because God moved the people to help that did.

Isn't that right Mr. Douglas?

True colors shining right through.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that everything violaes God's law depending on who is making the interpretations.

I knew this topic would be driven into the ground because those who mistakenly believe that being a homosexual is a choice and not genetic will never change their stance. There are still people who believe that whether they suffer from certain kinds of illness are God's will when if they would bother to look to the parents and grandparents they would see that they also had the same disease and it is genetic and has nothing to do with God's will. It is just nature at work. Homosexuals do not choose to be homosexual they are born that way. They can choose to not live the lifestyle but that doesn't keep them from being homosexuals. There are many crimes against nature such as drinking too much, eating too much etc that are just as bad as a person being a homosexual with another homosexual which is nobody's business. Why are you so threatened by someone else's lifestyle? Are you afraid it will rub off on you? By the way, I am not a homosexual, just an intelligent human being who takes the time to read and make decisions for myself.

Posted on THIS forum thread:

"I haven't had anything better to do, that's why I been posting so much.

By the way, have you all read about the mission trip to Belize. God at work."

Protestant denominations don’t adhere to the teachings of the Roman Church, but they are part of the history of the church.

Why is it Christians still believe Constantine was such a devout Christian when he wasn't. I'm not going into it again because I've had this discussion way to often. Look for the sources OUTSIDE of the early church if you want an understanding of Constantine, his ambitions, his motives, and his cruelty.

And by the way Mr. Neely, maybe you should post those comments under the article itself. I'm sure others would like to see them...

"You do not need to thank the scientist or the people who donated the plasma or the technicians who filtered it or the technicians who made sure it was packaged properly or the airplane pilot who got it here or the people who set this up or anyone but Jesus."

The majority of these people were probably Christians anyhow and wouldn't want the thanks because it was the right thing to do.

Are you that selfish? If you donate blood or whatever because it is the right thing, do you need the thanks.

Come on.

Mr. Neely,

History of Hospitals (from Encyc Britannica online)
As early as 4000 BC religions identified certain of their deities with healing. The temples of Saturn, and later of Asclepius in Asia Minor, were recognized as healing centres. Brahmanic hospitals were established in Sri Lanka as early as 431 BC, and King Asoka established a chain of hospitals in Hindustan about 230 BC. Around 100 BC the Romans established hospitals (valetudinaria) for the treatment of their sick and injured soldiers; their care was important because it was upon the integrity of the legions that the power of Rome was based.

It can be said, however, that the modern concept of a hospital dates from AD 331 when Constantine , having been converted to Christianity , abolished all pagan hospitals and thus created the opportunity for a new start. Until that time disease had isolated the sufferer from the community. The Christian tradition emphasized the close relationship of the sufferer to his fellow man, upon whom rested the obligation for care. Illness thus became a matter for the Christian church.

Around AD 370 St. Basil of Caesarea established a religious foundation in Cappadocia that included a hospital, an isolation unit for those suffering from leprosy, and buildings to house the poor, the elderly, and the sick. Following this example similar hospitals were later built in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. Another notable foundation was that of St. Benedict at Monte Cassino, founded early in the 6th century, where the care of the sick was placed above and before every other Christian duty. It was from this beginning that one of the first medical schools in Europe ultimately grew at Salerno and was of high repute by the 11th century. This example led to the establishment of similar monastic infirmaries in the western part of the empire.


'nuff said.

"I haven't had anything better to do, that's why I been posting so much.

By the way, have you all read about the mission trip to Belize. God at work."

You mean people at work and proselytize. I wonder if you missed this happy little statement in the article -

"“We try to reach people for Christ,” Waldo added. “We want to teach people about Christ. Body & Soul ministers through medicine, food and Jesus. The ministry’s thrust is the medical, but also we minister to the people. And we’ll continue to do construction projects in the villages.”"


How about helping people because its the right thing to do instead of using medical treatment to preach about Jesus.

Here you go. Here is that live giving plasma that some human discovered using the methods of science but while I have you tied down let me tell you about Jesus. You do not need to thank the scientist or the people who donated the plasma or the technicians who filtered it or the technicians who made sure it was packaged properly or the airplane pilot who got it here or the people who set this up or anyone but Jesus.

As I said in comments on another letter. It is sad that the work of people is hijacked by god and his believers instead of actually being thankful for the people that really do the work.

David

I'm beginning to think so. It's late, so maybe I'm just tired.

Good grief.
Oliver, can’t you let it go?
Does you’re opinion mean more than other’s?

Leave my name out of your comments please.
I haven’t been bringing your’s up.
Very good way to turn the conversation though.
Even though it won’t work.
Stop the nonsense please and let’s move on.

I haven't had anything better to do, that's why I been posting so much.

By the way, have you all read about the mission trip to Belize. God at work.

If you truly work that much, then you must never sleep for all the blogging you do on the TimesNews website. Tell me, how do you stay up and work such long hours with such little sleep? I admire you for that.

True color shining through? No...just tired of debating with closed minded individuals who run a dead horse in the ground. I just glanced back to see why this article was still listed at the top of the debate. I was amazed to see over 300 commentaries. That was first. I've been too busy working in the real world to post everyday on here. I don't have that much time after my 60 hour work weeks.

I just think that this has gotten way out of perspective and needs to end for now. Time to get a life and move on at this point. Sorry, that is just my logical side talking. But it's the truth.

Your true colors shine through.

I cannot believe you think that heathen comment was spot on.

Well, yes I can. You pretend to be so much better than everyone here, but you're just as bad, if not worse.

By the way, it seems you're still here too, so what does that make you?

I pay for my DSL and I paid for my computer and I have two jobs, working 60-plus hours a week, so if I come here and comment, it's nothing to you.

If you don't like it, you are free to look elsewhere.

How about that?

The pot appears to be calling the kettle ...

So you equate homosexuality with murder.

And you think WE are wrong?

You are a sad specimen, Sir.

If you have no more to say than the usual garbage, I have no more to say to you.

You, Sir, should "go and sin no more."

11."You would have the world believe that heterosexual sex is wholesome and godly, and that you and others of your ilk have done nothing except the biblically supported heterosexual pursuits."
You are right as long as it's in the boundaries of holy matrimony. Fornication is no less a sin.

What about married heterosexual couples that regularly engage in sodomy?

Many here have said the homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle (that is debatable). Living a Christian lifestyle is certainly chosen. You are taught the Bible and choose whether or not to believe and have faith. Why should an obviously chosen lifestyle be allowed to dictate what rights and privileges another lifestyle (which may or may not be chosen) has? It is the same as allowing vegetarians to ban all meat because they believe it is bad.

Actually, the world arsenokoite was made up by Paul. No one knows the true meaning of the word (although many have given their version).

"Effeminate" - Characterized by weakness and excessive refinement.

"Liers with mankind" - to be or to stay at rest in a horizontal position with another human (it says mankind not man).

The Bible says we are to learn from the Old Testament and live by the New Testament. If not, then everyone who cuts their hair, every woman who wears pants, etc. etc. would be sinners. If one chooses to defy God's wishes and live by the Old Testament, then they must live by ALL the laws of the Old Testament.

"You people who insist on posting endless bible verses to try to make your point should be asked to cease and desist, or you will lose your privileges."

In actuality, I did report the dumping of bible verses into the thread because that is not debate. When I awoke this morning I was actually relieved that those posts were not removed. I realized that if there is a more perfect example of how not to have a debate this is it. Now when I post in other forums I have a ready example of the crappy argumentation patters of people in the area where I live.

David

Mr. Starnes. I for one do not hate Christians but based on the rants on here I definitely fear them.

Sir, you have just as much right to post here as do I.

The thing that bothers me is that you will not stop posting comments filled with christian hate.

It seems to be all you understand.

There is nothing - NOTHING - about God's love, love others as you love yourself, Jesus is the prince of peace, forgive 70 times 7, judge not, etc.

All we hear from your ilk is condemnation - CONDEMNATION - of anyone who happens to be homosexual.

You will have to ask yourself why there has been mention of homosexuality since the beginning of written history.

Do you purport that all the millions upon billions of homosexual people throughout history CHOSE to be gay?

Is that really your position?

No. As I pointed out to another bible thumper here, you know in your heart - assuming you have any honesty in your being - that homosexuality is something that is not chosen but is born into people.

You know that, so what you are really saying is that ACTING on their attraction to people of the same sex should be disallowed.

And, to our great shame, it is still disallowed, even with threat of punishment, in many states.

It isn't that you believe these people have a choice, but you would have them abstain from following their instincts because it's distasteful to you.

You would have the world believe that heterosexual sex is wholesome and godly, and that you and others of your ilk have done nothing except the biblically supported heterosexual pursuits.

Abstain. That's what you prescribe. People you disagree with should just stifle themselves, and not find love and fulfillment.

You do the EWWWWWW thing and say "stop that!" and you think you have every right - given you by your god - to call these people deviants and perverts and stinky icky people.

I disagree with your assertions.

If you don't like that, then ask that my comments be removed.

Some have done so in the past, but my comments remain (except for one, early on, which I requested removal of, and was granted the request).

For the most part, you'd like to have this forum to yourselves so you could trash talk, and as RF has said, gossip amongst yourselves about these dastardly deviants who just refuse to go away.

There is absolutely NOTHING christ-like about your screeds.

You've wrapped yourselves in fake righteousness and use that cloak to spread your evil intent.

If you have no shame, the rest of us will point it out to you.

And, as I said, if you don't like my comments, there's a "suggest removal" under each comment.

Try it. It's been done.

Just one man's opinion: if the KTN continues to allow this forum, I will be amazed.

You people who insist on posting endless bible verses to try to make your point should be asked to cease and desist, or you will lose your privileges.

Also, those "christian" posts that call people perverts, deviants and other such flowerly descriptors should be spiked.

Sheesh! Get a clue! Get a life!

Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Congratulations to Ronnie Starnes, first article on the KTN to hit 300 comments. A copy of "The God Delusion" is awaiting your read.

"We don't have nor are we equipped to know it all." Yea, I'd say that's what the church was saying when Galileo attempted to enlighten the world of his discovery. Just keep that nose buried in that book. Life is much easier that way. Why think?

Ms Kennedy,

Where it says, “nor liers with mankind”, the original Greek word used there is arsenokoitēs. It means a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

You can look it up in Strong’s Concordance.

Mr. Starnes,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "9) Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: 10) Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God."

It does not say homosexuals.

Also, the Ten Commandments are in the New Testament. Romans 13:9-10 and Matthew 19:18-19

Nevermind. I don't want to hear any more. It'll just be more of the same and I'm tired of it.

How do you explain all the inconsistencies in the Bible?

Faith will keep you sane Mr Taylor. We don't have nor are we equipped to know it all. :)

"But that’s not what our Bible is all about." You have no basis for that statement whatsoever. Ronnie has his interpretation, and you have yours. There are NO facts to support either of your positions. Only your individual "faiths". Of all the folks who have read the entire bible in its present-day form, I doubt you could ever find two people who have the exact same interpretation of the stories. Great job there god, precise, clear, and to the point. No questions as to what your intentions were/are. Oh wait, I forget I just need some faith when I dont understand. I ised to believe religion was the greatest control device ever invented, though it appears that the word "faith" is even more powerful. Don't understand? Just have some faith.

RF that's your opinion and you are surely entitled to it.

What more do you want me to say?

What’s so disparaging is that is all he sees. That’s not the focus of Christianity. Those things happened throughout history and some of those still go on today. But that’s not what our Bible is all about.

It is sad to see it viewed in that manner.

Whatever. Spew your garbage to people who care. People like you are the reason I ran from organized religion.

How is that disparaging? He wrote it all most verbatim as it's recounted in the Bible. Of all the books in the English language the Bible is considered the most violent. Patricide, infanticide, incest, murder, rape,injustice, racism, sexism, kidnapping, war crimes, death, destruction, and mayhem are all spelled out being committed by so called godly men at the behest of God.

Mr. Douglas,

Such disparagement for anything godly. I feel sorry for you.

Yeah. That story about Lot and his younguns really just warms the heart.

The "angels" were approached by the gay guys who wanted them for their playtime - but instead, ol' Lot offered his virgin daughters to the "angels" so the angels could rape THEM instead of the boys.

Wonderful man of God.

So some bachelors who were hanging about offered to take the virgin girls and take their virginity so the gay guys couldn't rape them.

Huh?

Oh, it gets better.

Lot and his family flee the burning town, runnin' to the mountains.

The poor wife chose to look back at her burning home and was struck dead instantly - or turned into a pillar of salt - whichever way you prefer.

Then, Lot and his girls made it into the mountains, where the girls' biological clocks started tickin' and if they were ever gonna have any babies, they were outta luck.

Only fella there was dear old dad.

So they conspired to get the old man drunk in the cave and have sex with each of them (separately, I hope!) and became pregnant.

The drunk ol' dad didn't remember either encounter with his daughters, so I'm sure he was shocked and amazed when his girls gave birth to two little 'uns.

One girl had a son named Moab, and the second daughter made a son named Benammi.

Now ain't that a heart-warmin' story?

No wonder people here just hate them gays and think they're icky.

I understand.

Don't you?????

By saying they become one flesh, could mean blood related (you cannot have bone and flesh without blood). Many refer to their children as their own "flesh and blood."

You said, "Sorry, I’m used to people who are speculating to say they are, otherwise, it appears as if they are not speculating."

So there won't be any more misunderstanding, the definition of speculate is, "to theorize." Thus the reason I said, "Most have said. . ." and "I have heard. . ." instead of saying "I believe."

Ms. Kennedy, the bible explains some of the reasoning:

Gen 2:23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

She was taken from man. Being taking from man, they would become one flesh. He would hold fast to his wife.

Sorry, I’m used to people who are speculating to say they are, otherwise, it appears as if they are not speculating.

Notice he specified bone and flesh. Doesn’t mention blood at all.

"Where do you get that we are supposed to live in the New Testament only?" Hope these help Mr. Starnes.

Romans 15:4 - "For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

Hebrews 8:13, "A new covenant, He has made the first obsolete."

Hebrews 10:9, "He takes away the first that He may establish the second."

Hebrews 9:15-16 (KJV), "And for this cause He is the Mediator of the New Testament…For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."

Colossians 2:14 - "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

Romans 7:6, "But now we have been delivered from the law."

Galatians 3:24-25, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor."

Galatians 5:4 (KJV), "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Kajen B, why don't you take your own advice and actually read what someone posts. I said, "I have heard some who believe that if they receive an organ, blood, or body part from another human, then they do indeed become blood related." I never said I thought you would be. My posts on blood relation was speculation on God's intent in using Adam's rib to make Eve instead of simply making her separately as he did Adam.

David Neely,

Based on that verse and its context, the more vile thing would be to not obey.

We are all kinda guilty aren't we?

Nail in the hand Dude, nail in the foot.

Nail on the head David Neely, nail on the head.

Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

What more vile thing can a person say than don't question and simply obey? Don't think for yourself or question why I do these things to you? Simply obey. The ethics of the slave.

David

Oh, and here's something to think about: does God say that a man is not supposed to have feelings towards another man, or does it say that he is not supposed to ACT on those feelings?

Oh, and you talk about sin being a choice. Thus, a married man may be attracted to another woman, but is that in itself a sin, and if so, does he choose to have those feelings?

Mr. Starnes, you and others here have used the Bible and God's word to support your viewpoint against homosexuality. Yet I have one important question for you: suppose there are homosexuals that do not believe in God...what then? Are you saying that they have no choice but to believe? Are you willing to force laws against gay marriage on people, laws which are rooted in a religious viewpoint? Seems to me that this is analogous to forcing religion on a certain group pf people. America once did just that in its earlier years; do you want to go there again?

As for the "American people" being against the gay lifestyle, who appointed you as our spokesperson? You cite the anti-gay votes in the various states, but does this include all the registered voters in those states? Since there are states that do allow gay marriage, then I don't quite think that you can declare that "America" is against gay marriage.

Ms Kennedy, If I give you a kidney, does that make us blood related? I don’t think so.

I don’t know all about Scripture. I’ve only studied it for the last 10 years.

Why didn’t He just fill the Earth. I don’t know. Any answer I give there would be pure speculation. He is God, who are we to question?

Romans 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Mr. Starnes, you attempt to begin each post with a bit of logic. After two or three sentences, it reverts entirely to a book devoid of fact or evidence. Inadmissible in any form of debate, if your intent is to support male-female marriage only. Thats it, theres no more jibbering about white thrones and flying horsies. If you cannot use evidence or facts in any debate, you lost before it began.

Mr. Neely, very nice post sir.

The most evil immoral acts in the history have been committed in the name of God... by whatever name and/or a belief in a supernatural predestine superiority.

"The Christian lifestyle is not an immoral and unnatural lifestyle. "

Depends on your definition of immoral and unnatural. The Christian lifestyle is most definitely unnatural. It places human nature as criminal and then seeks to manipulate peoples belief based on those rules which it has, itself, promoted.
Homosexual activity takes place in numerous animal species and it cannot, therefore, be declared unnatural. The regulations based on sexual activities are in direct contrast to the way most animal species operate. Christianity promotes monogamy which is directly counter to the sexual practices of most animal species. Christianity may be many things but a natural way to be it is not.

On immorality. The bible promotes multiple things which I consider immoral. It advocates and supports slavery. It advocates and supports the suppression of women's rights. It advocates genocide against people who simply hold a different religious belief. When taken literally, like many people seem to do, it suppresses human curiosity and denies the actual nature of reality. It instead seeks to place something that cannot be proven or even tested for as the source for reality when actual evidence is opposite to that conclusion.

David

Mr. Starnes, how did you find out about God? Were you born knowing about Him or did someone teach you? God has always given us the CHOICE to believe in Him or not. Christians CHOOSE to believe in Him. CHOICE was indeed God's intent.

Actually, in the New Testament (which we are suppose to live by) there are only three sections with references that could be interpreted as meaning homosexuality (many scholars disagree on whether it means homosexuality or not). There is nothing attributed to Jesus on the subject. Therefore, the Bible could most certainly be used as a source to show love and compassion for a fellow human.

Just for the record, I am defending another humans LEGAL rights, and my firm belief that church and state should be kept totally separate.

Mr. Robinette, I have heard many interpretations of the reasons. Most have said they felt it was more symbolic than scientific. That Eve would always be a part of Adam in the same since that a child will always be a part of his parents (whether they are biological or adoptive). As for society today, I have heard some who believe that if they receive an organ, blood, or body part from another human, then they do indeed become blood related.

To my fellow gay friends, loving family, and supportive straight friends: Please continue to love and be loved how you desire. Do not be discouraged by the ignorance of so many in this community and other places. Life is too short to not love and be loved, and to be yourself. I am continually surprised at how actually "evil" some of these religiously 'uneducated' people are. Our lives and our rights are slowly but surely improving.... don't let these people's ignorances slow us down in our progress towards happiness and acceptance.

Kajen B, if God could make Adam and Eve, then why couldn't he fill the earth himself instead of having brothers and sisters do it? The same with Eve. If he didn't intend for them to be blood related, then why else would he use Adam's rib instead of just creating her the same as he did Adam? I guess I taught Sunday School too long. I like to pose questions to those who claim to know the scripture so well.

Mr. Starnes, you wrote, "where did you get the right to ask for equal rights for a chosen lifestyle?" Living a Christian lifestyle is a "chosen" lifestyle. Why should you have more rights than others who "choose" differently?

No, I'm not ashamed but I'm not stupid either. People like you would make my life hell if you knew my real name. As for the numbers are you insane? There are close to 304 million people in this country. If we take your number of 1-4% (wrong again) then that 3-12 million. Duh! I don't think I'll even respond to the rest of your asinine and insulting post. In fact I will never respond to such ignorance and hate ever again.

Ms. Kennedy,

I have to admit, for someone claiming to be Christian you sure slap it around.

Adam and Eve were not blood related. How does having a rib from Adam make them blood related? They were married. That blood thing don’t even make sense. As far as their offspring are concerned, God had to make a provision in order for them to fill the Earth. He is God, He can do that if wants to.

Are you sure you are a Christian, because you ask some very elementary questions that you should have the answers for. Maybe you need to talk to your pastor.

Some people are sterile due to many things. Nature, sickness, accident and many other things. What’s the point?

What country are you living in. Contrary to popular belief from the right this IS NOT a democracy. Thank God.

(correction) of the people,by the people, and for the people (correction). Which comes straight from "The Gettysburg Address".

Put the topic of gay marriage up for vote in every state and let all the people of this country be heard on what they do or do not want. When that is done there is nothing left to argue about because the people will be heard. We should not be letting judges run this country. This government is for the people, of the people, and for the people....therefore put it up for vote and let eveyone be heard. Done Deal.

I am curious. Eve was made from Adam's rib, thus they were blood related. The made babies. Those children (brothers and sisters) then made more babies together. Why was it OK for brothers and sisters to, you know, but not for two men or two women? Why are some couples sterile if their purpose is to make babies? Just asking.

Not taking a religious stand point? Are you kidding. That's all your doing. Every statement you make is biased. I don't give a crap what your religion is. You are wanting to deny me and millions of others equal rights.

I'm beginning to believe, and rightfully so, that some of these rightwing fundies are insane.

now with clicky action

Hey, guys. Here's the address (no, I still can't make a link!) for my favorite columnist:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2009/05/27/notes052709.DTL

I think you'll like it (not you religious fanatics - you might just drop dead if you read this!!!).

It's Mark Morford's column. It's e-mailed to me each time it publishes.

He's a funny, irreverent and oh so savvy writer.

Enjoy!

Mr. Robinette. Jr.

Here is a picture of a dog with a pipe in its mouth. Your argument is invalid.

And stop yelling.

You have all this mess to say about Noah and God's law/plan, etc. but you're not talking about religion? LOLOL

"I MERELY STATED MY BELIEFS BASED NOT ON A RELIGION BUT ON GOD'S LAW."

But...uh...I...huh...what?

Ronnie,
In some cultures - ones that have been around as long, if not longer than, christianity - having more than one spouse is not unsual. Homosexuality was not unusual and in some instances, was considered a sacred state.

So where and how does christianity get off dictating to the rest of the whole planet of what's morally right and/or wrong?

again, just asking ....

Just wanted to point out that more than 500 people have sworn they have seen the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, and Elvis (after death).

Ronnie Starnes.

In case you don't know typing in all caps in Internet etiquette is considered yelling. Its childish and completely unnecessary. Anyone who sees you typing in all caps is simply going to ignore what you have to say. I know I am.

David

Blah, blah, blah. Same ol' Bible thumping rant different mouthpiece.

oh poor Oliver. The world is out to get him...

poor you.

All this conversation about rights. Let’s call this what this is. Our rights come from God. They (homos) have the right to do what they wish now. What they desire is the blessing of our government on this act of depravity. If they choose to have this disgusting show of affection to each other in public, they do. Most of the opinions expressed here are deceitful and misleading. Progressive secularists, humanist, anti God people have an ulterior motivation for opening Pandora’s Box, which when opened, will move their agenda forward for full gay marriage. This lifestyle is morally corrupt just like murder, stealing, false witness and a bounty of other sins. Our society was based and accepts our rights and wrongs from God's Holy word, the benchmark for good and evil, the map, menu, guide etc... Not accepting homosexuality as sin you may as well suggest the other sins mentioned above are not sin and ask for the right to participate in those as well. The American people recognize the wrath this sin causes and will never accept it willingly. Say no to Homosexual Marriage and to civil unions. Never agree to accept this evil, no matter the argument. Put simply, it is right or wrong. It is wrong, filthy and an abomination in the sight of the Almighty. I stand with the almighty in calling this what it is. Pedophilia, child molesting, bestiality are the same. What it is, is SIN
Ronnie Starnes

-----------------------------

Ronnie, perhaps in your world, according to your religious tenents, homosexuality is a 'sin' BUT - your religion is _not_ THE only 'religion' around.

Why does your religious viewpoint take prescedent over mine - or someone else's? What makes your religious concepts more important or valid or 'right' than my own - which, obviously, is very different than yours?

In _my_ world, homosexuality is not something to fear; not something to be ashamed of; not something to hide away.

Why aren't my views given as much weight as yours? I'm not "anti-God" but I don't hold the same spiritual views as you do - and you appear to claim to follow your God's teachings.

This country was founded on the principles that ALL WO/MEN are created equal. Were there exceptions noted in THOSE Laws of The Land?

This country was ALSO founded on the principles of "religious freedom" BUT .... your religious doctrine seems to take center stage and mine is decried as "less than" or somehow relegated to being something "evil" or some kind of 'abomination'.

Exactly when were you and those who don't want to allow equality to ALL left in charge of determining what's what for everyone else?!

pffft You haven't been left in charge. Slave owners thought they were 'right' once also and those who insist on trampling on the rights of others will also someday learn of their "SINS".

I love how the foam at the mouth bigots keep proving my points. The more you rant and rave the more the sensible citizen will see the foolishness of your arguments and the hate and lies underlying them.

Ms. Smith, some states, including Virginia, have pass disgusting laws to even prevent same sex contractual agreements. If two people of the same sex file partnership agreements regarding property, or power of attorney for health issues in VA the Commonwealth has deemed the agreement invalid.

Ms. Smith, I know it doesn't matter as to where my heart is but it does make a huge difference when it comes to inheritance rights, property rights, medical decisions,.. Basically life and death issues with a partner not currently recognized by the state.
R.F.

------------------
R.F., it's very true that there's a difference between where one's heart is and what the law allows people to do - legally. I understand that.
That's where lawyers come into play. Inheritance rights, property rights, medical decisions, basic life and death issues with a partner who's not currently recognized by the state ... those can all be addressed with legal papers signed by both partners and on file with an attorney - be they hetrosexual or homosexual. It's done all the time for all manner of situations; for persons of age and those underage or, for those who become mentally and/or physically incapacitated.
So the state won't recognize a marriage .. but the courts will recognize legal paperwork.
------------------

A marriage ceremony performed by a preacher in a church "before God" is not recognized by the state as a legal marriage.

A marriage is not legal unless a license is issued by the state, properly signed by a person authorized by the state to perform marriage ceremonies, and recorded with the state.

Why then are states making marriage laws based on religion?
Lana Kennedy

------------------
Exactly and danged well stated!! So the question begs: what happened to the separation of church and state? Why are those of us who're not part of organized religions _forced_ to participate in something we don't agree with, don't like and don't even recognize as having authority in our lives? We're "forced" because we can't claim to be living in a state of matrimony - legally - without the hocus-pocus of having to go through a "legal" (re: religious) ceremony first.
------------------

Regardless of your thoughts on homosexuality, there is simply no legal basis by which to continue denying rights to homosexual Americans. At the very least, our nation’s legislatures (state by state, because, in our current state of affairs, federalism dictates that each state must decide its own marriage laws) should grant strengthened same-sex civil unions.
To deny such a basic freedom to masses of Americans, without any legal basis, is in no way conducive to the preservation of Liberty, and sets a precedent for the legislation of morality that cannot be allowed.
Chase Lyons

------------------

Also well said. In a word, it's illegal. In another word, it's unconstitutional - both on a state and federal level. http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/relationships/39668prs20090526.html

As noted before, _nothing_ is ever written in stone. Laws are always subject to change when facts prove a law to be unconstitutional and discriminatory. In this particular case and issue, because the majority in 'power' see it as a religious issue more than a civil liberties issue, it will take some time to turn things around. Look at how long it took blacks to win their cases ... and for American Indians, even after 500 years, they're _STILL_ fighting for their most basic rights!
Never stop trying to right wrongs and protect those who need protection.

It's far from over.

LOL I just got to tell a so called "missionary" to leave off and stop coming around. I can't stand this constant proselytizing. They must think people live under a rock and haven't heard this their entire lives. I wonder how they would react if I got a bunch of Giant Spaghetti Monster literature together and started going door to door passing it out?

Honestly, I don't think so. Just as there are still many groups - like the KKK - that hold onto the old fear and anger and resentment, I fear there will always be those who refuse to give rights and privileges to others.

Matthew Wayne Shepard's death was an example - just three weeks ago, Republican representative Virginia Foxx stated the young man's death was not because he was gay - she called it a hoax.

They cannot admit, even in a clear-cut case such as this, that hatred of gays has anything to do with their brutalization and deaths.

We will have to have an entire generation grow up (and they are, right now) who are not so filled with hatred and intolerance before any real progress is made.

Even though several states have given marriage rights to gays, many - most - other states fight that decision.

Heck no, they won't give anyone the same rights they hold dear. Those rights are reserved for old white republican men. Others need not apply.

Always has been. But maybe, it won't always remain that way.

We can hope.

Oliver, I am reminded of those who used the same tired arguments in the 50s & 60s to justify segregation who years later apologized for their evil words and actions. I wonder if those on here who shout the loudest hate will one day do the same?

"I am obliged to confess that I do not regard the abolition of slavery as a means of warding off the struggle of the two races in the Southern states.

The Negroes may long remain slaves without complaining; but if they are once raised to the level of freemen, they will soon revolt at being deprived of almost all their civil rights; and as they cannot become the equals of the whites, they will speedily show themselves as enemies.”

So said 19th century French historian and political scientist Alexis de Tocqueville.

It's the same here. Straight people are terrified of gay people, because they know they've treated them so badly for so long that, if they were granted equal rights, who knows what they would want next.

It will probably take a few more years before the rights and privileges of white heterosexual men will be available to all.

For now, it's still a struggle, and the faux christians show their true colors every time the subject comes up.

Bigotry can best be defined as similar to a phobia. It is an unreasonable irrational fear of those not similar to yourself. Those on here who so vehemently oppose gay and lesbian equality have absolutely no rational scientific basis their beliefs and will use outlandish arguments in an attempt to support their prejudice. The last few posts of "not in my face" is a perfect example. If a straight couple was walking down the street holding hands not one thought would be given to it. I don't believe for a second that Mr. F. would have a problem with that. Does anyone here believe two guys in love could walk down any street in Kingsport holding hands and be safe? Maybe that's what we need to do; all of us need to challenge that fear and actually do it. Maybe it might change things. I don't know at this point.

Again, Mr. B. refused to answer my question. Just more attacks - no answers. He knew I had his number. He knows that's exactly what he means.

Keep it in the closet. Abstain all your lives. Do not express your love for anyone. Just stay in the closet.

He knows that I know and he hates me for it. He feels less than human because he communicated with me.

I kept him from talking to others of you, as though he was forced to read my rantings.

I stopped him from making progress with others who post here.

And he says I am absurd? Well, maybe I am. But I'd love to hear the answer to my questions. Doesn't he really mean that he wants you to deny yourselves any kind of love and pleasure in your lives?

He won't answer. He'll just continue to scapegoat. It's all he knows to do.

I bring out the worst in him, huh? He was calm and cool and aiming his sniper gun at all who were not like him - AND quoting from the Bible, AND praying on a public web site - and then along comes Mr. Douglas and brings out the worst in him.

Scapegoating. Classic case.

"However, be it a heterosexual, homosexual or any type of relationship, there is a proper time and place for it to be shown. In a public setting around small children is not the proper place. It is best to let them come to terms with who they are when they are of each at the age of accountability and can make that lifestyle choice for themselves."

At what point do you draw the line on public displays. I don't know of any gay or bisexual people who want to be allowed to do anything in public other than hold hands and maybe kiss the one the love. Are you willing to insist, in the name of your decency, that everyone heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual be refused permission for all forms of public display of affection. Homosexuals aren't advocating for the right to have oral sex in public they are simply advocating for the same rights that you enjoy which is the simple displays of caring that you are allowed. I am not harmed by seeing two people hold hands or kiss whether they are same sex or not. Neither are my children. In actuality, despite your protest to the contrary, neither you or your kids are harmed by such things you just don't like it.

David

Is it bigotry or just proper etiquette as affection being shown in public places? I am not a bigot in any sense of the word. If I am a bigot, then so are the people who are posting on this blog as they are forcing their opinions and lifestyles on me as well.

And no, I would not start a fight with anyone. Do you think that is really going to resolve anything? Violences only begets more violence and then no resolution.

However, be it a heterosexual, homosexual or any type of relationship, there is a proper time and place for it to be shown. In a public setting around small children is not the proper place. It is best to let them come to terms with who they are when they are of each at the age of accountability and can make that lifestyle choice for themselves.

I was merely expressing my comment based on J.K.'s point of view. He told me to keep my opinions where they belong and that is fine. I will keep my choices and opinions where they belong, but will not allow others to force their lifestyle choices on me in public. They need to keep their lifestyle choices where they belong as well. We should respect each other in the public realm in that manner. Behind closed doors, live how you want to.

Now, really...let's get off this topic. It's obviously not going to be resolved here. But will hopefully be resolved on a much larger scale sooner than later at the State and Federal Levels.

Ladies and gentleman, I bid you adieu for the final time. I have wasted enough time here and plan to make better use of my time standing for what I believe in where real differences can be made.

Again, my intention was just to offer a way to Salvation. Take it or leave it the choice is yours to make. And I respect whichever choice you make. But please refrain from making a public spectacle of yourself and have consideration for the elders and children of society.

Tell me something who cares what people do in the bedroom house or whatever? People have the right to live thier live as they please . Who are we to judge someone else ?

So the next time you see two members of the same sex showing affection publicly, what will be your response? Ya gonna fight it out? Ya gonna tell them to stop because it offends you, and you are trying to shelter your children from the realities of this world? Im quite sure that's not going to go over too well. Get over yourself. Nobody is going to heed your personal request to hide themselves because you you would prefer not to see the truth. I hope your children find some good friends, with good families that will allow them to see the world, whether you know about it or not. Otherwise they are already behind in so many ways. Times like this make me wish karma was an actual, factual cycle.

Once again your entire post proved my point. Fish in a barrel.

Behold! The perfect example of bigotry: "I could care less what one does in his or her own bedroom. But when it is shoved down my throat, taunted in my face and I have to witness it in public places when I am with my family, I find it down right disgusting."

J.K..

For the record, I did not change my name to Kajen.

Secondly, in response to your commentaries: "do you have any secrets you'd like to disclose? you are talking about people who post here that have nothing better to do, but you're the number one player!


maybe it's time to come out of the closet?

seriously, who cares what people do in their bedrooms? if you don't like it, you don't have to join them.

you seem a little obsessed.

read a new book."

At the time that I was commenting on Friday evening, I would like to confess that I was bored and had nothing better to do than to come out of the closet and profess myself as being a Christian and offering a prayer of Salvation to anyone who was willing to read my postings.

I could care less what one does in his or her own bedroom. But when it is shoved down my throat, taunted in my face and I have to witness it in public places when I am with my family, I find it down right disgusting.

If you wish to be gay or homosexual, that is your choice. I am fine with it. Just keep it in the privacy and confines of your own dwelling. Their is no place in society for such distasteful behavior. Therefore, it should not be made public or recognized in society the same as the traditional family.

Everything has it's place. I can see your point that Christianity goes overboard and things are shoved down people's throats. But the same can now be equally be said of the "Homosexuals" as they are pusing their agenda publicly down our throats and daring us to say one word without being labeled a hate monger. As long as the homosexuals keep it to themselves and out of the public spotlight, I will keep silent. As long as they taught their agenda and flaunt themselves in public as "free speech" and "freedom of expression", I will continue to assert my rights and my beliefs as well. I do believe in equality. I also believe in standing for what I believe in when push comes to shove. I did not start this agenda, nor will I be the one who ends it. But I will fight it until their beliefs are back in the confines of their homes and then I will return to the confines of my home as well.

However, if I do nothing and do not stand for what I believe in, then I am nothing. Hence the saying, "say nothing, do nothing, be nothing".

So yes J.K., I agree with you. As long as both sides stay in their proper place things will be fine. But if the media and articles continues the attacks, then I will exercise my point of view and rights just as everyone else.

I am not saying that I hate gay people. I don't. I just don't agree with that lifestyle and I don't want to have to see on public display at the Mall, shopping centers, or any other place in public. Especially, when my family is with me and I have to explain it to my daughter who saw to guys together this past weekend showing their expressions of affections for one another in a public family setting. I guess it was their way of proving what they could get away with. But it was totally inappropriate for a child to have witnessed. I will not tolerate such behavior and will speak out with my dieing breath if I have to to stand for that which is right and good in this country.

If homosexuals maintain their silence and keep things in the confines of their homes, then others will be able to keep silent as well. However, as long as the media and newspapers continue to feed the frenzy, the opinions are going to keep flaring and being expressed.

But again, do not confuse me with Kajen as that individual is a totally different individual and is not me nor am I that person. We are simply two different people writing our opinions in commentary to this article.

Again, I am amazed that this article is still going to this point. I am through here and I wish everyone the best in their lives.

To that I bid you adieu!

Rationalize it anyway you want to Oliver. Not everyone is blind to your narcissistic, egomaniacal bull. As a matter of fact, most see it I’m sure. You’re laughable at best. I guess you serve a purpose though. We all do. Turn everything on me, that’s your way, always will be I’m sure. False accusation after accusation.

You’re the scapegoat??? You’re absurd. I almost feel less human for even having conversed with you. I know not very Christian like is it? What can I say, you bring out the worst in me, and I’m sure many others.

And to the Dude, did we find a thesaurus? Normal people just don’t talk that way. Please don’t eat me however. Easy with the brimstone, I’m fair skinned.

To all the others I’ve engaged that truly tried to teach me something honest and from the heart, I thank you and apologize that Oliver brought out the worst in me. Maybe some other time.

Kajen

; )

Yes Mr. Oliver, please stop commenting. In your absence we might then be able to see the resurrection of cheney love, et al, whose poignant display of cranial dissonance is much, much more entertaining than rationality or wit. Your constant, reason based diatribes grow tiresome day after day I'm sure, to the heads-buried-in-the-sand-fox-disciples who long for the day when men are men and don't have to spend their time thinking. Yes, you should stop posting so that the flann agins and earlys can hold their prayer meetuns with no fear from the gay invasion or lib rull undermining. I can't imagine how you've lasted this long.

Absolutely DO NOT stop commenting. You're comments are very thought provoking and insightful.

Looks like I missed a lot while working, huh? Now, where was I? Oh, yes. It's a classic case of scapegoating.

He (assuming it IS a he) has placed all his anger and distrust from himself to me. It's treatable, given enough time and therapy.

But for the purposes of continuing (or ending) this discussion, I know where the downward slide started - with a question on my part, or, if you prefer, an accusation.

I asked/accused him of having an agenda that he has not admitted; here's the paragraph:
"Here's the issue, I think: you believe (and by 'you,' I mean everyone like you - not you personally) that gay people might even have been born gay, but you think they should just abstain from doing what they naturally are inclined to do.
Isn't that it?
Yeah, you might be gay, but you shouldn't pursue your 'gayness' and you should just be abstinent all your life.
Squelch it.
Deny it.
As Doris said, "stay in the closet."
That's your take on the subject.
You're a heterosexual and you get to pursue your dreams, your happiness, your one (or six) true loves.
But you don't want THEM to do that.
Oh, no! That makes you queasy. You just don't want that to be happening in your perfectly controlled world.
That may mean you are wrong, and lord knows, you CANNOT be wrong!"

Okay. That was it. After that, there was no forthcoming answer but a spate of hate-filled screeds, accusing me of being everything but the antichrist.

He could not admit that, could not even think about it, so he simply did a scapegoat - everything he felt was put off on me, accusing ME of having all those feelings.

The christian disappeared and the demonic inner (real) person emerged.

This is not the first time I've been scapegoated. It won't be the last, I'm sure.

If it makes him feel better about himself, then by all means, it's acceptable to me.

This person does not know me. I do not know this person, but he has determined that he knows me even better than I know myself.

But the truth is, those are his feelings - not mine.

Scapegoat away. I do not care.

You do me no harm, but you should at least know that I'm onto your game.

To the others, RF, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Neely, I apologize to you for all the hate-spewing I've wrought here.

It was not my intention.

If it would be better for me to stop commenting, please tell me and I'll do so at once.

"Stop helping!" is the common way of expressing it, I guess.

And finally, thank you for your kind words.

still wondering why jeremy changed his/her name to kajen?

His words stand as evidence as do mine. All one has to do is read them. Without bias of course.

"You are so transparent it is unreal. You are the worst type of hypocrite. Because your type is malicious in intent. You don't care for RF or Mr. Taylor one bit. All you care about is promoting your distorted perspective of the truth."

That mess doesnt sound much like an attempt at "understanding" in the slightest. Mr. Douglas certainly is an intelligent and though-provoking member of this forum, and it almost appears he has hit a nerve with his posts here. Logic, rationale, and compassion appear to be Mr. Douglas' game. What's yours?

I'm lad you do RF because all I have tried to do was understand another's view point and he isn't going to allow that at all.

Kajen, you are apparently new to this forum or you would know that Mr. Douglas DOES care about me, Mr. Taylor, and quite a few others. Yes, he's not fond of organized religion, but has been a consistent advocate for minority rights, whether it be of race, gender, orientation, etc. Also, I may not necessarily agree with everything he writes or his delivery at all times but I have a lot of respect for him because of his stands on the above issues.

Mr. Douglas,

You are so transparent it is unreal. You are the worst type of hypocrite. Because your type is malicious in intent. You don't care for RF or Mr. Taylor one bit. All you care about is promoting your distorted perspective of the truth.

In the seemingly unlikely event that one of them would wake up one day and show the least bit of interest in Christianity or any other religion for that fact, you would forsake them in a blink of an eye. Yes forsake them. You're no supporter of their cause or lifestyle, only your selfish egotistical pride and God hating rhetoric.

Bottom line, you are simply a God hater and so long as another opinion agrees with yours you are okay. As soon as there is a hint of disagreement, you begin your belittling "you're dumb and uncivilized" bull. I guess that empowers you and makes you feel good about yourself.

You can't empathize with anyone but yourself and those like you. Who are you trying to fool? How can you empathize with them when you can't possibly know what they go through? Unless of course you have lied again. But as you mentioned in the string, you are not gay but then jump all over someone else who is not gay saying they can’t understand. Is that a double standard? Me thinks so…

Yes sir, you are the worst type of individual there is. Selfish as can be and malicious as all get up. I actually take pity on you. At least most others aren't pretending to be something they aren't, let alone a friend and supporter. Your shroud has been removed. Go ahead and deny it. But you know who you are. Now what do you plan?

At least I'm not pretending.

You can still call me Kajen

Thank you Mr. Lyons for a great response.

A fundamental misunderstanding of the role of government permeates every word of Eugene Harrell’s letter. Mr. Harrell claims that, without the government’s laws, Americans would not “know right from wrong.”
It seems that Mr. Harrell would think it convenient if our nation were composed of so many mindless drones and that our nation would be utterly utopian if only we had a government strong enough to impress its moral resolve on the populace.
But indeed the opposite is true, and our Founding Fathers knew this. The role of any government, as penned by Thomas Jefferson and embodied, indeed enshrined, in the Constitution, is to secure and protect the unalienable rights of its people, to ensure that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness are available for all.
For the most part, the laws of our country follow in just accord with this purpose. Traffic laws, for instance, protect Life. Civil rights legislation over the past century has attempted to secure the last two. And so on.
But Mr. Harrell seems to want to impose his own will on all Americans, throwing Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness for a minority to the wind.
At one point, though, Mr. Harrell asks a very important question: “How do we know what’s morally wrong?” The fact is that our Constitution is set up to allow to each his or her own moral convictions, and while Mr. Harrell’s interpretation of scripture may lead him to oppose homosexuality, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prevents Washington, or for that matter Nashville as well, from forcing others to abide by his creed. Each American must decide how to live his or her life, and it is not, by any means, the job of an Orwellian Big Brother to decide the validity of homosexuality as a lifestyle.
Regardless of your thoughts on homosexuality, there is simply no legal basis by which to continue denying rights to homosexual Americans. At the very least, our nation’s legislatures (state by state, because, in our current state of affairs, federalism dictates that each state must decide its own marriage laws) should grant strengthened same-sex civil unions.
To deny such a basic freedom to masses of Americans, without any legal basis, is in no way conducive to the preservation of Liberty, and sets a precedent for the legislation of morality that cannot be allowed.

Ms. Kennedy, I've been asking the same question for years.

A marriage ceremony performed by a preacher in a church "before God" is not recognized by the state as a legal marriage.

A marriage is not legal unless a license is issued by the state, properly signed by a person authorized by the state to perform marriage ceremonies, and recorded with the state.

Why then are states making marriage laws based on religion?

Ms. Smith, I know it doesn't matter as to where my heart is but it does make a huge difference when it comes to inheritance rights, property rights, medical decisions,.. Basically life and death issues with a partner not currently recognized by the state.

R.F., in the last 12+ years or so, I've learned that nothing - nothing - written by man is ever written in stone. Anything written will always be changed when the winds of politics begin blowing in a different direction.

In any case, regarding California's decision:
what of it? It's only a man-made law. It is NOT a Supreme Law, given by a God. Will it prevent you from continuing to love whomever you wish? No. Will it prevent you from living with whomever you wish in a state of matrimony or holding a ceremony to celebrate your relationship? NO.

Notice the words "State of Matrimony". Legal mumbo-jumbo written by man means very little because it is ALWAYS subject to change. Yes?

"God doesn't make mistakes" - yes? Well, celebrate that which He hath given you. He created YOU in HIS image. Live happily. Live the Life you were given, as He created you to have it.

That man and/or _some_ (and maybe even "many") in society don't approve? - what's more important to _YOU_? Are you more concerned about THEM or - what you do with what's been given to you as a GIFT by THE Supreme Creator of All That Is?

buh! I'd be damned if I'd let a little thing like legal mumbojumbo stand in my way of happiness! Oh! I didn't! Living with my husband without the legal mumbojumbo-dog-n-pony show called "wedding ceremony" has been GREAT for the last 25 years. Four great sons later ... what did I miss? The "blessings" (or lack thereof) of folks who don't know me and who don't care about me? LOL

Be real.

Live well.

Look inside and find your happiness. It's not found outside of you.

�-)

It's a sad dark day in California. Evil has temporarily won.

"Loving your neighbor as yourself" isn't an instruction to love and accept everything about your neighbor when they do/say/are things you don't like.

In my world, it simply means to treat my neighbor with the simplest and most basic of concepts: common decency and respect for simply being another person who is just as human as myself.

Then we also have that one biblical teaching that says (paraphrasing a bit) what we do to the least of our neighbors, we do to Him (the God of the bible).

Those are such simple and basic teachings that cross many religious lines and are so basic in their concept that there's really no room for misinterpretation to suit any other agenda.

We either truly listen and know with our hearts or ... well, we find ourselves in this discussion again and again and again ....................

R.F. wrote:
Ms. Smith, thank you for you words but there are those here who have made it their lives mission disrupt anyone's attempt at happiness and will do everything in their power to shove their antiquated belief systems down everyone's throats. If, over the centuries, we had give into their demands we'd still be grubbing in dirt as serfs... or who am I kidding, we'd still be in the trees.

----------------

R.F., my words are about walking the talk. Yes, there will always be - and have always been - those who aren't happy with their lives and who seem to find some happiness in trying to make others as miserable as they are. Fortunately, some of us don't allow others to have such power over us.
I grew up in a southern baptist home but even at a very young age, saw the hypocrisy of organized religions and refused to make it part of my life. Simple teachings have been twisted to suit individual agendas. It's a sad but true fact of our society; not just here but across the planet.
It's all we can do to control our own thoughts and feelings without worrying and taking on the problems and issues of others. This subject really isn't about religion as much as it's about individuals and something they fear is a part of them somewhere deep down.

(And the quoting of biblical scriptures begins with the very simple and basic concept of 'loving your neighbor as yourself' since there weren't any specific exceptions noted to leave out of that simple 'teaching'.)

Because those 'in power' decry homosexuality, others looking to be like those in power adopt their ideals and theologies (I guess is a good word). In reality and the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean they're 'right' - or even 'wrong'. It just means they have their own opinion that differs from ours. 'They' can't shove anything on us that we don't allow. Just as there are many of those who feel like we do, there are many who don't agree with us.

And so it goes .....

We are all continuous sinners and God is the only judge. Let people live their lives as they wish and let their God judge them. This author must be channeling Jerry Falwell.

BTW, everyone who has been here any length of time knows exactly who Doris is and isn't fooled by the multiple names changes. The very conspicuous writing styles doesn't change. The rabid predictable idiocy especially never changes.

Ms. Smith, thank you for you words but there are those here who have made it their lives mission disrupt anyone's attempt at happiness and will do everything in their power to shove their antiquated belief systems down everyone's throats. If, over the centuries, we had give into their demands we'd still be grubbing in dirt as serfs... or who am I kidding, we'd still be in the trees.

someday when the world becomes a perfect place for all things and every person, perhaps your beliefs will be totally accepted by all.

Until then, you'll need to treat others with the same respect you exepct from them. Not all of us feel the same way that you do and we're no less entitled to our feelings no matter what you might think of us as people.

Your truths are not my truths. Please don't expect me to live by yours when you don't and won't live by mine.

Your teachings tell you that when you're without sin - totally and completely - then you may toss that first stone. You'll also probably be sitting at the righthand side of your God.

Until then, live your life as happily as you can without harming others. Please allow others to do the same.

The main point you chose to ignore, for obvious reasons, and blew smoke instead:

"Here's the issue, I think: you believe (and by "you," I mean everyone like you - not you personally) that gay people might even have been born gay, but you think they should just abstain from doing what they naturally are inclined to do.

Isn't that it?

'Yeah, you might be gay, but you shouldn't pursue your 'gayness' and you should just be abstinent all your life.'

Squelch it.

Deny it.

As Doris said, "stay in the closet."

That's your take on the subject.

You're a heterosexual and you get to pursue your dreams, your happiness, your one (or six) true loves.

But you don't want THEM to do that.

Oh, no! That makes you queasy. You just don't want that to be happening in your perfectly controlled world.

That may mean you are wrong, and lord knows, you CANNOT be wrong!"

THAT is the truth, I believe.

If History repeats itself (which it usually does) - December21, 2012 we are all going to be in for a BIG surprise.

Mr. Taylor,

You can’t just mouth a prayer and receive the salvation the Bible speaks of. That’s ridiculous and I really wish people would stop promoting that.

There have been many, free-thinkers, over thousands of years who have all said Christianity would fail and simply go away. Guess what, get in line a wait. It hasn’t happened.

Kajen

So the only difference here is that Kajen B. has said the prayer, THE prayer, that now seals his fate in a land of golden roads and fabulous mansions. That, and now he finds himself in that exclusive clique of folks who know the REAL truth, of what truly is good, and what truly is bad. Humanity would collapse in on itself if the bible were somehow erased from the earth, right? Total anarchy, folks unable to discern right from wrong in any circumstance. While I have to hand it to Christianity, as well as Islam, as they have reigned as the supreme people-manipulator for many, many years. Oddly enough, the two stories are really not much different from one another. A plot twist here, a re-worded command there. Humans have concocted their own gods and creation stories as far back as we can research. They simply morph to keep up with the times. Though it does appear the evolution of the human mind is working its magic, and progressive thought processes are beginning to streamline and become organized. I surely won't be alive to see the true beginning of the downfall, but its coming. And we will either make it through the impending religious wars, or our planet will be destroyed by baseless, primitive ideology, and the doomsday weapons they have created.

Mr. Douglas,

Whatever you must tell yourself to appease your conscience. That’s fine with me. One can only offer love and charity so much until the slaps in the face get the better of them. Your hand sore?

If I lied to you and simply told you I agree with you, would that make me a better person? You have serious issues friend, and I use that term with a pinch of sarcasm.

You and the others stepped all over the thread. Probably for the best though, I don’t want you’re dishin’ out anyhow although I was trying to understand others who seemed to be trying to state their view without getting too personal. And then there is you…

If you are finished trying to beat me down, I would like to move on. Please have the last word, even if it is okay.

For the record, I’m not trying to win hearts and forget the praise. My praise is not directed to men although there are some I encourage for doing the right thing, whatever it may be at the time.

Pride is on the sin list and yes I’m just as guilty. When have I ever stated I wasn’t??? I’m a sinner Mr. Douglas. My heart is as wicked as the next. Thus the reason I don’t pretend not to need help.

I am a piece of work and I will take that as a compliment.

Are you done now? Please just say okay and let us move on. Please!

We are told that we are suppose to live by the New Testament.

"None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been. Moreover, there is nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Further, homosexuality is not mentioned in ten of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul. It is only in Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 that there may be references to homosexuality.2 The paucity of references to homosexuality in the New Testament suggests that it was not a matter of major concern either for Jesus or for the early Christian movement." William O. Walker, Jr.

Even these three references do not specify homosexuality as we know it today.

Just something to think about.

Aha!


I KNEW it!

why did jeremy change his name to kajen?

Mr. B., you have some fine way of showing christian love and charity.

You have not won any hearts here, I can tell you that.

Seldom have I encountered a more nasty christian - not even here.

I suspect you have used other names here, because your rhetoric is similar, if not exactly like one or two others.

That's okay. People do that every day.

What's not okay is to put on your holy cloth and pretend to be so good, until someone calls you on it, and then you're "just human."

No way did I prevent you from making headway with the others here.

That's in your imagination.

Think whatever you prefer, but I do not tell lies, and I am not arrogant.

Just because I disagree with most of what you say doesn't make me a liar, nor arrogant.

If I agreed with you - if I argued on your side - with the exact same attitude I have now, I'd be your buddy.

You'd praise me to high heaven.

Since we disagree, you snipe me with words, not bullets.

Finally, I did not think anyone had scared you off, because I knew you hadn't left. Nor do I think anyone of your attitude could be scared off.

Bullies usually get the last word, even if it's just "okay."

And passive aggressives are worse than all the bullies in the world because of their cloaking devices.

Just look at yourself as others see you.

I have done enough soul searching in my lifetime to know exactly how I am, and how I appear.

Should I not have pride in myself, after all the years I have worked on making myself a better person, or is that on your sin list too?

If so, you're as guilty as I.

You are a piece of work, I'll say that for you.

And that is not a compliment.

Sir.

Mr. Douglas, I'm gone from this conversation, not gone. Rant on to someone who cares for what mundane stuff you have to say. I'll keep the same screen name too. Don’t think you have scared me away. That’s thinking a bit high about yourself for someone who comes off being so humble and full of wisdom though pride is so evident.

I’m done with this topic. The sad thing, I think I could have maybe learned something from RF and maybe he could have understood where I was coming from. But you and Neely and others sure weren’t going to let that happen were you?

Meet you on another topic Mr. Douglas, I’m sure.

By the way, if I called you a liar, it is only because I saw it in your comments. Get over yourself would ya?

By the way again, when we do meet on another topic, even then, you can still call me by my first name. And if your so bent on putting a gender to me and feel uncomfortable calling by my first name, I’m a Mr.

See you around.

After he or she has insulted everyone who comments here, he or she decides it's time to quit.

How convenient!

After having called me a liar, not once, but twice, and now, tries to say I'm irrational.

I am irrational.

She/he/it is rational.

Now there's a switch!

It annoys me no end to be called a liar, because in everything I say and do, I do not lie - even when the truth will get my butt in a sling.

And that PERSON - and I'm being generous here - calls me a liar.

And arrogant.

Well, okay.

Maybe she/he/it is gone.

No way I believe that! That one will just come back with another screen name.

She/he/it cannot help itself.

Now I'm mad.

But I'm going to watch a sci-fi TV show and get over it.

Mr. Taylor, Neely and RF, I am sorry if I made things worse for you here.

You have suffered enough indignities to last a lifetime.

I would never make that worse for you.

I deeply respect your intelligence, your sense of humor, your education, and your courage - because it does take courage to do what each of you has done - more courage than I could probably muster.

And back to the topic, tomorrow shall be an important day for those who support equality for all humans, and those who are intent on denying their neighbors the same rights. The California Supreme Court's ruling on Proposition 8 will be made public at some point on Tuesday, which will either validate the results of the election, or overturn them as an unconstitutional "bigot-vote." A very important day indeed. Did the Mormons and Southern Baptists throw their millions down the toilet, or do they still have a heavy hand in government affairs? I am quite eager to find out, whatever the decision.

And I have no problem with you. Most of my friends do things I don't agree with and I'm sure I do things they don't agree with. But we are able to state our disagreement and get over it.

I went through many stages before my faith took hold. I was actually raised Catholic. Turned away from God, believed in no God, thought maybe there could be and hated Him. I finally came to my faith about 11 years ago and have studying and learning since.

I know how religion can push people away.

I think we've beat this enough. I'll wish you and yours the best and be on my way to another topic.

Uhm... hating God is not being an atheist. An atheist wouldn't waste time hating God because he/she doesn't even believe in God. As for the being born gay; it has been debated over and over again and the data is pretty conclusive. If the same studies where done (and have been) on other aspects of human behavior and proven to be a genetic/biological basis then it's accepted. But try telling a rightwinger that there is a difference in the posterior hypothalamus between gay/lesbians and straights, or if one identical twin is gay then the other is twice as likely to be as well than fraternal twins, or if there appears to be genetic markers etc., etc., etc., they go up in flames and accuse you of lying or vomiting the Bible as a fact.

I knew I was different as long as I could remember. My aunt told me a few years ago she knew I was gay when I was four years old. (LOL Not sure how to take that.) When I started hitting puberty I had absolutely no interest whatsoever in girls. I fought and fought my nature. I prayed and agonized. Did everything I could to cover up who I was including being a selfish bas***d and dating a girl for two years as a cover. It wasn't until I left this area that I started accepting me for me and because truly happy. I have the same problems every other human being has. I struggle over money, worry about job security, have arguments with my partner (so you know I'm single now and have nothing to do with being gay but money, money, money issues), love, laugh, cry, play... but NONE of it has a thing to do with being gay. The ONLY thing which has been difficult is the unreasonable homophobia, blindness, and ignorance I endure everyday.

AND why is it I have friends who are "born again" but they don't have a problem with me. In fact one friend would be furious if I didn't invite her and her husband to any future wedding. LOL Because, she takes the Bible as a guide book for living, parables, and metaphorical stories to live by; not a literal interpretation.

Mr. Douglas,

Every time you profess that you do not tell lies, you dig yourself deeper into the hole. Do you really think anyone believes that?

I really don’t care where you think I have come from. I know the road I have traveled.

Your age means nothing to me. You can be just as arrogant at 100 as you can be at 15 and I’m almost sure your level of arrogance has diminished much over the years.

I know you are a human by design, but why don’t you try acting like one. We are rational creatures after all. So maybe we don’t have that much in common.

Mr Neely,

Without any due respect,

I feel dumber for having read what you just posted. It is nonsense and I’ll make a mental note not to read your garbage again.

RF,

I think our problem is the same but different. You're tired of the bible thumpin' and I'm tired of Christian bashing. If you had any involvement with Christianity, you have far more experience with my position than I do yours. But you continue to lump me in with the rest.

Maybe I am part of the problem with my way of thinking. But my beliefs cannot change now that I am considered reborn. I'm now born the way I am with a love for God, they way you say your were born to be gay.

I'm not trying to beat you up over it. I just don't like the bashing when someone like me disagrees. Now I know there are some who truly deserve to be bashed because of the hatred they spew. But stating my heart felt beliefs based on what is the essence of me is not spewing hatred.

Many normal people regardless of sexual orientation can carry on a civilized conversation. Agree to disagree as they say, which is actually a term I’m not fond of, but seems appropriate in some sense here.

"Then why does it bother you so much that I think there is?"

It bothers me because people act like its true and then try to enact laws that treat it like truth. It bothers me because people like you insist that it is "divine truth" and try to hold humanity back. It presents a false vision of the world that is then promoted as "gospel truth." As I said I am not anti-Christian. I am anti-religion. I am anti-religion because it is a tether to primitive ideas about what the universe is, what people are and what our choices are.

"I don’t have a problem with your being gay. What I do have a problem with is that my faith tells me it is wrong and you all tell me it isn’t and then force others to push tolerance down my throat. And I have no problem with tolerance, what you do, what billy bob does, what the preacher down the lane does is your own business. As long as it doesn’t directly affect me, I’ll tolerate anything I guess, wrong or right."

This very statement is such a piece of dance around nonsense. You speak about what is being done to you in the name of tolerance and you completely ignore what is being done to other people in the name of your intolerance. It is the years of suppression and discrimination wrought in the name of a primitive god from a primitive tribe of desert nomads which has nothing to do with real life. Stop complaining about being forced to do things when religion, and in particular Jewish based religion , has spent such incredible amounts of force and time seeking to suppress things that don't support the "divine mandate."

David

It does not shame me.

And I have a great deal of trouble believing you were ever an Atheist.

For one thing, most Atheists are Atheists because they were reared to be religious, and finally saw the error of their ways.

Never in my life have I heard of an Atheist becoming a religious person - well, that's not completely true.

Madeline Murray O'Hare's son pretended to become a Christian because there was a lot more money in that than in Atheism.

But everyone - not just me - doubted him.

By the way, I am not an Atheist. Just to be clear.

Another thing about me you just made up out of whole cloth.

I do not tell lies.

If you were as old as I am, you'd realize the truth is so much easier than lying.

If you tell a lie, you always have to tell a second lie, and a third one, so that eventually you forget which lies you told, and end up getting caught in them, like the web of deceit they are.

Always tell the truth. It's easier to remember.

It has served me well.

I have no sob story, no blame game.

You make things up to suit your stories, but anyone who reads my comments knows that what you say isn't true.

We have nothing in common besides the fact that we are human beings.

Mr. Douglas, I don’t claim to have all of the answers. Never have. But it may shame you to realize that I am not gay, so that means you and I have more in common. Because I was at one time a professing atheist who hated God and made sure everyone I knew and would meet, knew I hated God and exactly why. So don’t give me your sob story, blame game. I used to play it and was, if I may boast, better than you are. And I’m sorry, there isn’t a person on this earth who hasn’t, doesn’t and will not lie again. I hope you were trying to prove a point and don’t truly believe that. About being born gay, to be honest, I don’t know if people are born gay or not. There are far more intelligent people than I who cannot answer that with certainty. Your problem with me, is you think that I think I know everything. I don’t. I like to think I know just enough.

You can still call me Kajen.

Kajen, that is not what you've been doing. You've been espousing the exact same arguments that the wingnuts on here do. You do have a problem with gays and lesbians based on your posts. You do not understand that by holding the attitudes you do how you damage others who have done nothing but be born different than yourself. The "I don't have a problem as long as it doesn't affect me" reasoning doesn't hold water, because to hold to the belief that I am “less-than” because of the blessing of my birth is to degrade me. The saddest thing is that rightwing fundies either don't see that or could care less.

I am human, but I am NOT nor have I ever been a hypocrite.

Every day of my life, I try to be better than the day before.

I try to learn something new, not just every day, but every hour.

Maybe I'm chronically curious.

Maybe I'm insatiably curious.

I NEED to learn, to grow, to get better.

In my lifetime, I've never done anything to deliberately hurt anyone.

You may accuse me of many things, but you may never accuse me of lying, nor of being a hypocrite.

Never.

I will tell you the same thing in person as I've said here.

There is not room in my heart nor time in my life for something as selfish as hatred.

Hatred only hurts the person who does the hating.

There are lots of people who anger me, but unlike you, I don't hate those people.

I merely get mad, speak out, and then forget it.

Rarely have I stayed angry more than a few minutes.

I am far too busy to hold grudges or remain angry.

But then, I'm not gay.

I've never had THAT kind of hurt, that kind of prejudice against me, simply because of who I was born to be.

In my lifetime, I've never made the decision to be heterosexual.

There was never a turning point, when I had to ask myself, "am I interested in the opposite sex?"

Since that is true for me, and I am human, I can only assume the gay people I know were exactly the same.

They did not have to ask, at some point, "am I going to be straight, or am I going to be gay?"

No one - not one person - chooses to be gay, any more than the rest of us choose to be heterosexual.

It is unbearably sad to have come to this point, and be bashed by a Bible quoting quasi religious person because of something they had no control over.

Here's the issue, I think: you believe (and by "you," I mean everyone like you - not you personally) that gay people might even have been born gay, but you think they should just abstain from doing what they naturally are inclined to do.

Isn't that it?

Yeah, you might be gay, but you shouldn't pursue your 'gayness' and you should just be abstinent all your life.

Squelch it.

Deny it.

As Doris said, "stay in the closet."

That's your take on the subject.

You're a heterosexual and you get to pursue your dreams, your happiness, your one (or six) true loves.

But you don't want THEM to do that.

Oh, no! That makes you queasy. You just don't want that to be happening in your perfectly controlled world.

That may mean you are wrong, and lord knows, you CANNOT be wrong!

Equality by the law doesn't bother me. What bothers me, is that you won't even allow me to speak my beliefs after the fact will you? You've taken nothing from me sir except my heart felt beliefs on the topic.

And Mr. Douglas, yes I am a hypocrite at times. I’m human. Are you not?

I think we have gave and gave and we have had to take it over and over again. There is no compromise on this subject. Anything less that equal treatment under the law is a slap in the face.

Hypocrisy. That's the bottom line. Hypocrites are the ones that bother me.

They go on and on about their religion, but in fact, they are not religious at all, just hypocrites.

"The true hypocrite is the one who ceases to perceive his deception, the one who lies with sincerity.”

That aptly describes this person.

Andre Gide (French writer, humanist and moralist, 1947 winner of the Nobel prize for literature, who died in 1951) said this.

He got it right on the money!

So long as it doesn't affect me or mine, why do I care?

But you have to allow me the right to say I think it is not right and to say so openly.

You can't just take from society. You have to be willing to give some.

Ok, then if you don't have a problem then my partner and I should have the same right as you and be able to marry.

You go right ahead and believe that Mr. Douglas. But anyone with a mind and eyes can read your hatred. But, put it on me if you want. I'll live with it because I know in my case, that is far from the truth. I can't speak for anyone else.

Just like I told your friend, you don’t know me. In fact I buy into the doctrine of total depravity. I’m not better than anyone else. You’re no better than anyone else. Depravity is at the heart of us. I’m just not afraid to admit it. Are you? You argument in your last comment is age old and as see through now as it was then.

I don’t have a problem with your being gay. What I do have a problem with is that my faith tells me it is wrong and you all tell me it isn’t and then force others to push tolerance down my throat. And I have no problem with tolerance, what you do, what billy bob does, what the preacher down the lane does is your own business. As long as it doesn’t directly affect me, I’ll tolerate anything I guess, wrong or right.

So who’s being holier than thou now? Sure sounds like you.

No conception of love??? There is no greater love. That’s where you fail to see my viewpoint. That’s why I am who I am because of that love. And believe it or not, I’m okay with myself. I’m not the militant one here. Hate is a dreadful thing that will tear you up inside. Being gay has nothing to do with that hate I would assume. Your hatred is a derivative of something else and simply a catalyst for deeper hatred.

It seems, RF, that because THEY feel nothing much except hatred, they put that off on us.

They hate, so we must also hate.

And this person, who may or may not be Mr. Flanagan, or Doris, or any number of people who have already posted this malarkey here, knows what he or she is doing.

They are well-versed in the name game, and the blame game, and the shame game.

That's what they specialize in.

Name calling, blaming and shaming.

That's almost the entire extent of their religion.

That person insists that I have shown hatred, and now dares to call me a liar if I deny that.

What kind of a demonic trap is that?

And all while professing to be a good christian!

I suspect that's a preacher's way of handling flock - if you question the preacher, you will be punished.

That's the routine.

He or she is good at it.

Cannot, will not admit that WE don't peddle hatred.

They peddle hatred.

Huge truckloads of hatred.

And then try to put it off on us.

The bigotry you're overlooking in yourself is the fact that you quote chapter and verse condemnation of homosexuality but fail to follow the other MOUNTAIN of scriptures of every "abomonation" under the sun. You pick and choose what "sin" is important to rant about. You justify your unreasonable arguements not with facts or sustainable verifiable research but with mythology and quotes from a collection of writings thousands of years old. If I quoted to you from Noric/Germanic mythology to justify Aryan superiority you'd think I had lost my mind but you're doing the same thing with your straight superiority nonsense using the Bible.

Wow. What a piece of drivel. I could care less if you believe in little green men. Doesn't bother me in the least. You, Doris and the few others on here keep pushing your "faith" as fact when it's not. You keep making blanket statements about all gays and lesbians. You are the type of people who through words and actions have cause so much suffering throughout history. I am not a bigot due to the fact that I don't possess an unreasonable anger toward a group. My anger is the same anger toward the Holocaust, Indian relocation, Jim Crow Laws, Segregation.... It's a perfectly reasonable response to prejudice and bigotry. The group I despise is exactly as I spelled it out. These are also the same people who believe you can't be a spiritual person and scientifically minded as well. They pick and chose what parts of their "gospel" to believe. The place themselves in a constant position of moral superiority while ignoring the stench of evil they live. I despise the zealot evangelical who uses the Bible to oppress and discriminate against a particular group while denying their words and actions are hatefilled. You can claim all the Jesus love you want. Those of us who constantly hear the "Turn to Jesus and be saved from you gayness" are furious. You don't love me. You have no conception of love if you believe that garbage. You have no clue the anger that that constant degrading statement generates. And yes, it is very degrading because you and your like are saying that who I am (and it's not just a matter of sex. It's an entire prospective of life on a deep level) is less than you, is flawed, is deserving of being saved from. The problem with being gay is not mine. I'm fine with it. You, and the others spewing out the Bible here, to justify your unreasonable hatred of gays and lesbians, have the problem. You're the ones who have an issue with me being me. To me this deniable bigotry is a form of psychosis and in need of extensive therapy.

That's what I practice??? When have I told anyone they were going to hell? Yes, I've quoted scripture as support to my comments but only a few times as I recall. You took an instant hatred to me as soon as you saw that. You don't know me, what I’m all about. If I practice what I preach. But your hatred of Christians shined through like the noonday sun as soon as I stated a belief of mine.

Again, seems you have the prejudice here, not me. I'm trying my best to keep cool with all of the ridicule and name calling that I've received. Think I'm doing a pretty good job. You on the other hand are flipping your lid. Why?

I am not Doris??? I'll respect your wishes and not address you by your first name. I'll do that because I am a Christian and try my best, although I fail often, not to offend.

But you're bigoted in your views and you can't deny that. If you do, not only are you a bigot, but a liar as well.

You can still call me Kajen.

Oh, I don't think YOU read anything here, except just bits and pieces.

The thing is, as has been repeated over and over, ad nauseum, none of us - NONE - hate Christians.

Don't try to pull that one off.

It's the faux christians, the ones who spout chapter and verse in response to anything anyone says, who do not try to be Christian - or followers of Christ - by example - but by preaching, hounding, browbeating, Bible thumping, and hiding behind your faux religion any time anyone questions you - claiming HATRED from us.

WE DO NOT HATE CHRISTIANS.

We dislike fakery, we dislike pretend christians, we dislike those who put their religion out for all the world to see, like grungy clothes on a clothesline, to say "look at me! I'm a Christian! I'm special. You're not! I'm right. You're wrong. Not only that, you're going to hell and I'm not."

That is what we dislike.

That is what you practice.

Period.

End of story.

RF,

I don't have the why bother attitude you suggest, otherwise I would have been done trying to understand long ago.

Seems you have the why bother attitude with anything I am saying.

If other so called Christians have shown hatred towards you, I can't and won't attempt to apologize for them. That's between you and them.

My point of contention is that if someone believes there is a God and wants to dedicate their life to glorifying Him and living their lives according to His Word, why can't you let them do that?

Why must you, and others, belittle them, make them feel stupid, call them names and try to break what little hope they may have?

Seems to me, you have issues far deeper than Christians and their beliefs. I almost think you are the type that thrives on disputes and arguments. You need them to fill a void or something, I don't know. But you need to take a good hard look at yourself before you continue to claim bigotry and hatred. Do you even read what you write???

Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

The origin of the word bigot and bigoterie in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "RELIGIOUS HYPOCRITE." Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

Okay, Mr. or Ms B. I did NOT ask YOU a question about anything.

Unless, of course, you are Doris, in which case that changes everything.

We did not give ourselves the name "the chorus" - someone else named us that because they didn't like our opinions and comments.

It was designed as a putdown.

Clear?

Since you KNOW your children and others in your family, I see no reason why you should call them Mr. or Mrs. or Ms. but you do not know me. I do not know you.

Therefore, you have no right nor permission to call me by my first name.

I clearly spelled out the reasons, but you chose to ignore them.

Again, I DID NOT ask you a question - UNLESS you are Doris.

If you're posting as two different people, you're even more troubled than I realized.

And Doris, you DO NOT - COULD NOT - WILL NEVER know how homosexuals feel unless you are one.

No amount of talking and 'splaining and talking and talking can make you know how a homosexual feels.

And to answer another of your silly quotes (I think ol' Rush the Druggie Limberger said it first), gay people are indeed gay.

Some of the "gayest" and happiest people I know are gay people who have finally come out of the closet after years of having to hide.

In fact, my dearest friend is gay. When I met him, many years ago, I had no idea of his persuasion - didn't care, anyway, even if I knew.

After several years, he "came out," and since that time, he's been happy, contented, relieved, and joyous most of the time.

You do not know diddly squat about gays or anything else you've talked about so far.

Skippy? I kind of like that. I think I'll start using that as a screen name on another web site.

Finally, unwittingly, you've done something right.

Whoa Nellie!!!

It's a red-letter day for sure.

Way to go, Doris!!

Skippy signing off!

David Neely,

Then why does it bother you so much that I think there is?

As for my parentheses, I could have went all out and sited EVERY form of bigotry but felt you could look it up yourself. Who am I kidding? If it doesn't conform to your view of the universe then why bother.

"But I'm curious now since you said it. If the Bible doesn't measure up to be the word of God, tell me what does?"

Absolutely nothing. That is the point.

Nothing stands up as the word of god because......


there isn't one.

David

Once again you have failed to read my posts. I do not have contempt for Christians. I have contempt for holier than thou Bible banging extremist who constantly attempt to push a religious agenda onto everyone and into politics. There's a HUGE difference between a true Christian and those I despise. ALSO, bigotry is an "unreasonable" and illogical contempt. I have not only reasons but can back up my irritation with fact, not superstitious nonsense.

And you have added to it as I assumed you would with the little parentheses. Thanks.

Can’t admit your bigotry can you? You have stereotyped religion. You treat Christians with hatred. In your mind your thought far exceeds the thought of Christians and you don’t want to hear anything they have to say. By definition, although you won’t admit it, you are a bigot.

Thanks for making the point for me.

*direct

Multiple studies over the years have demonstrated a director correlation between homophobia and latent homosexuality.... Hmm... Me thinks thou protesteth a bit to much.

You convieniently left off the rest of that definition: : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Acts of bigotry include (but not limited to) nationalism, classism, religiocentrism and fascism but the term can be applied to any situation where stereotypes and narrow minded thinking dominate over logical, intelligent thought.

You know, you all like to throw that word bigot around. Do you really know how it is defined?

One who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

Seems like the door swings both ways doesn’t it? You can’t effectually use the word unless you apply it to yourself too. And for that matter, aren’t we all bigots to some degree towards something?

Eric, she's demonstrating the death spasm of a pathetic bigoted cause.

Doris, I'd be trying a new strategy if you really think this movement will be stopped. Holding on to the ignorant talking points and mythological books of the past will only feed your opposition.

Also, for your information I'm a very GAY gay. I'm happier than I've ever been. I have a great family, wonderful friends, love my job, live in a great old house that was my dream... The ONLY unhappiness I ever have is over people like you treating me like dirt. THAT'S IT. Not my life but the constant evil I have to be subjected to by people like you.

The Dude,

My apologies.

Kajen

David, or Mr. Neeley, I'm walking on egg shells since Mr. Douglas Chewed me out...

That's what faith is.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

But I'm curious now since you said it. If the Bible doesn't measure up to be the word of God, tell me what does?

GET OVER IT!!!! WE'RE NOT GOING BACK IN THE CLOSET!!!! I know you and all the other wingnuts psychos would love nothing better than to ship us all off to the gas chambers.

"What good would that do? We know because of our faith in the infallible Word of God. You don't accept that so what good would it do?"

How do you know that you are following the infallible word of god? Faith in a book written by committee. Sorry, but a collection of nonsense collected by council from hundreds of books does not make for the infallible word of god.

David

I'll have you know I am not a christian, and only berate them for their irrational beliefs. I believe christians if prepared correctly (light on the brimstone), make excellent appetizers.

Mr F,

Don't want to be disrespectful, but I have crushed nobody. Will never crush anybody. And despise those that do. So hey, we agree on something. Imagine that?

Should I refer to you as Mr. Douglas, to be respectful, when you don't offer the same respect to me?

Alright, Mr. Douglas. If you don't like the answers, quit asking the questions. Seems pretty simple to me.

I never knew first names offended people so much. Guess I'll have to call my kids Mr. and Ms. as not to offend them.

What is funny, you all claim that we are disrespectful and hammer on you folks. Truth of the matter is, and anyone with any intelligence who reads this comment string, can see who the bullies are Mr. Douglas. Your Choir?, that's sad. You segregate yourselves from the others because you are so closed minded, you can't stand another opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

Sorry to offend you Mr. Douglas. But I honestly don't see the cause for it. Your question didn't sound rhetorical so I answered. Victims??? Come on are you serious! Who was the victim here? You made a poor attempt Mr. Douglas to victimize the person you asked the question to. I guess maybe you're mad because I stepped in and ruined your feeling so superior and intelligent. Sorry, but again, you asked the question.

You can call me Kajen. It won't offend me. Don't know why it would???? Jeeesh.

I was NOT addressing you - whomever you are - Mr. or Ms. B.

The comment was meant for those who are VICTIMS of people like you.

You are wasting your time and effort posting scripture and especially copying and pasting comments from someone who has victimized these people in the past.

And finally, what IS this thing about people calling me by my first name, as though we were buddies?????????

Stop it! Of course, I'm not referring to RF or Mr. Taylor or others of our "choir."

Just those who would browbeat me and make fun of me - and then call me by my first name.

It's a small but extremely disrespectful thing to do. That's it, isn't it?

It's a way to show disrespect without calling someone a dirty name.

Just call me "Oliver" - or worse than that - "Ollie" to show your complete disrespect for me?

If you applied for a job and came to a job interview with me, would you call me Oliver?

If you did, I certainly would not hire you. I probably wouldn't even interview you.

And if I found out how you speak to and treat others, I'd send you on your way so fast the door wouldn't have a chance to hit you on the butt on the way out.

I hope these groups eventually get whats coming to them. Prison is the perfect place for these psychos.

Kajen it's really sad that you would promote a so called approach that has been proven over and over again to be damaging and destructive. No, sad isn't the right word. Infuriating would be more like it. The Bible bangers would rather crush people's lives and spread their lies than come into the 21 century.

Oliver,

What good would that do? We know because of our faith in the infallible Word of God. You don't accept that so what good would it do?

"God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality."

quote from:

http://www.gotquestions.org/homosexuality-Bible.html

Romans 1:24–27 (NIV)
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.
...

That is our answer but you won't accept it nor discuss it calmly or rationally. So what is it you would like to hear besides the truth we believe?

Kajen

Here is another good wesite that offers help:

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/

For anyone who needs counsel on overcoming the religious stigma on gays in America, there's an excellent web site -

faithinamerica.info

- where you can find a great deal of information about the subject.

Hope you enjoy your visit there.

It's informative.

Question for you, Doris: How would you know how homosexual individuals feel?

How would you be able to know whether homosexuals are born or choose?

How can we know that you aren't homosexual? Because you say so?

Nah.

It would give me a great deal of satisfaction if someone - anyone - who so adamantly insists that gay people choose to be gay - would just say how they know that.

Tell us. Inform us.

How could you possibly know that??????

I'll BET you're still waiting on the parade.

Maybe you should consider getting another hobby, Doris.

Something that doesn't involve others' sex lives? Maybe?

That'd be great.

Thanks.

Keep us posted on your new hobby.

Give it a rest Doris. You're view point from the 15th century is on the way out.

Probably.

R F,

We only shake snakes on the weekends.

Throughout the week we don capes and run around as our favorite super heroes "Bibleman” and “Salvation Boy” burning Harry Potter books.

hey jeremy,

do you have any secrets you'd like to disclose? you are talking about people who post here that have nothing better to do, but you're the number one player!


maybe it's time to come out of the closet?

seriously, who cares what people do in their bedrooms? if you don't like it, you don't have to join them.

you seem a little obsessed.

read a new book.

Sorry Kajen. I don't mean to come across as sour. I just find it funny that this debate goes on for days on end. You would think that people would have better things to do with their life than just sit and comment on the same article, day after day after day. Their will always be differing view on "Homosexuality" and "God's Law".

So I thought I would have a little fun at the expense of others leisure time. Oh, I did say that I was a Christian. However, I never said that I wasn't human. I admit to being a little antagonistic. And that side got the better of me today and for that I apologize. I am after all still human and subject to error as anybody. I enjoy and delight in a good challenge just as any human does.

I know, that reposting of the same thing was a bit immature. Then again, so were the posts coming after my initial post of the day by various others who alwasy failed to read my initial point of view from the beginning.

The audience here needs to grow up and learn to discuss things in a mature adult like manner. Then and only then real change and progress will take place. But if we are all going be childish, then I choose redundancy to dish it out the same as they do. I just reverberate what I want stated until it penetrates into one's cranial cavity.

I merely want to offer a plan of Salvation for those wishing to listen. Anyone who does not, well...don't read my articles...that's all that I can say.

I'm done with the discussion and did say I would give you all the last word. But I have to say as I was following up to see what the last words may be:

Jeremy and Dude, your harassment is very unbecoming of a real Christian. The black eyes I mentioned, they come from people like you. We are known by our fruits, yours appear to be somewhat sour.

Thanks.

Twice today you've made me LOL, RF!

Thank you.

You have a great Memorial Day - a day off! Wow!

Don't have to work at either job. Whatever shall I do???

I know! Eat grilled hot dogs with chili, cole slaw, pickle relish, cheese, and chips - and chase it all with some super cold beer.

Fun fun fun!

I'm always surprised that these people think we've never heard their spiel our entire lives? As if they keep repeating the same thing over and over again we're going to start jibbering in tongues and run around shaking snakes.

Mr. Flanary, nine year olds tend to do the exact same thing when they know they have lost an argument with their parents... but we're all extremely glad to know you've mastered the copy and paste functionality on your computer.

As already pointed out by other logical thinking folk here, you are only making yourself look ridiculous at this point. My suggestion is that you go back to your streetcorner soapbox, because you're failing miserably here.

Anyhow... let's go grill! Hope everyone has a safe and happy Memorial Day, even you silly fanatics. :)

Jeremy,

Your copy/paste action is the internet equivalent of a Jack Chick tract left on the urinal... totally ignored by the target audience, and leaves the original person with the smug satisfaction of noneffective "witnessing"- albeit with no converts.

Ever wonder why?

Try living your Christian life privately, working within your own circle to affect those closest to you, and lose the fundie Baptist mentality that equates being a thorn in society's side with effective witnessing.

Ignorance has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because TheDude says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Dude, I know that I'm a poor bowler and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus (doan mess wif da jeebus) died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from the gutter balls and live a Dude-like life. I invite El Duderino into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with The Dude's help from this day forward to follow him (and Donnie) as Lord of my life. In His Dudeness' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know The Dude.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Now, where's Bunny?

Prais the Lord and pass me a copperhead!!!

The good news is, if you pray that prayer and believe it, you can still learn to think for yourselves. At some point in your life, as you grow tired of hearing "the word" from those who are less like the son of god than the son of sam, you may find that what they mean by the greatest story ever told, is that it's the biggest lie ever told.

It's typical and I'm use to it. And they can't understand my anger. LOL

Guess he thinks that if he keeps posting that ridiculous comment, we'll finally leave this thread to him.

He's pathetic!

P.S. I knew you didn't mean me!

Grin!

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

The good news is, if you pray that prayer and believe it, you can still learn to think for yourselves. At some point in your life, as you grow tired of hearing "the word" from those who are less like the son of god than the son of sam, you may find that what they mean by the greatest story ever told, is that it's the biggest lie ever told.

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

I'm so glad my point continues to be verified. Thank you Jeremy.

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

Not you Oliver. LOL

Blah, blah, blah, blah. If you were on my porch I would already have tossed you across the road.

This is me - still looking for the book of God, or the book of Jesus.

So far, all I've been able to find are the books of men - not even any women - just men.

THEY said they were inspired by God.

THEY said all the stuff in your book.

God's "words" were written by men.

Just plain men.

Sorry.

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

"but because God says so" LOLOLOL Keep on proving me right. LOL Better be reading that Bible a little more carefully. Bet you committed an abomination of some type a few times already today. LOL Selectively choosing what you're zealot about. Think that’s a fine example of justification for fear, hate and bigotry.

Keep it up Mr. Flanagan. Repeated proselytizing does nothing more than turn people away from your fantasy. I've been there. I know. Please dont stop.

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

Here we go again. Disrespect of the highest order wrapped in the Bible.

"For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Son." "And whosever believeth in Him shall not perish but have Everlasting Life".

God loves the sinner, but hates the sin (according to the article: Homosexuality). But God also states: "He that calls upon the name of the Lord and repents of his sin, yet shall he be saved".

Homosexuality has been and always will be a sin. Not because you, I or any other human says so, but because God says so.

However, that can all change today if you will follow this simple prayer from you heart and mean it: "Heavenly Father, I kno that I am a sinner and need your forgiveness. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. I am willing to turn away from my sin and live a Godly life. I invite Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. I am willing, with God's help from this day forward to follow Christ as Lord of my life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen."

If you prayed that prayer of repentance and meant, it will change your life forever. And if you choose not to, that is fine as well.

At least you have been given the knowledge of how to become saved and get to know Christ.

And if you don't accept Christ, that makes you no better or no less than anyone else. You are still a person just as me and we all need to be treated with dignity and respect to our opinions.

Deo Valente!

As for bias in science, especially social sciences, one must always be aware of the potential for bias. In Participation/Observation studies this is extremely difficult. By emersion in the field a researcher runs the danger of not only bias in observation due to their background but also of possibly "going native" and clouding judgment based on new experience.

Agreed. The first rule of thumb in science is not to presuppose a supernatural cause to any phenomenon. The "it's this way because God said so" argument is not science.

In what ways are the fields of Anthropology and Sociology biased. If you seek to mean biased toward the truth then you are correct. They accept only factual findings on the human condition instead of accepting information from an unverifiable source. Of course, what you mean to say is that Anthropology and Sociology don't start with the assumption that god is behind it all. It is typical of the very thing I stated in my letter. Religion is counter to human progress.

David

Oh, and before I forget, as this letter is a perfect example of picking and choosing what is at the top of the so called sin list. The author is foaming at the mouth over gay and lesbians but doesn't get this worked up about the miriad of other "sins" in the Bible. A. Blatent bigotry by picking and choosing what will justify their homophobia. B. Ignorance favored over science and reason. C. Fundamental interpretation instead of metaphorical interpretation and "in-context" reasoning.

You still don't get it. Christians are not the target. Fundamentalism, bigotry, hatred, religious extremeism, ignorance, hypocracy, etc. are the targets. I, and the majority of Americans, are sick of it. We're sick of so called Christians trying to push their mythology and faith down our throats as "science". The far right is constantly attempting to ban knowlege, stifling education, pomoting hate and bigotry, advocating war, in the name of God. Don't tell me the the basic core of who and what I am is somehow a flawed choice and then attempt to push me into the shadows and a role of "less than" with bully pulpit legislation. My attack is against these things; not against a truly spiritual person. There is HUGE difference between a spiritual person and a religious person.

Look, this is really a fruitless argument. Neither of us seems to be willing to consider that we don’t have the answer. So I’ll end and let you all have the final thoughts if you will. But I’ll end with this; The trend as of late, and you can’t deny this as this thread of comments is so indicative of, Christians are becoming the target of persecution once again. But most of us are truly secure in that we knew it would come again and be increased in magnitude. Real Christians don’t spread hate that you are alluding to. It is the supposed Christians that give the rest of us a black eye. We can tell the difference by the fruits they produce. Some are simply wolves in sheep’s clothing. I’m sorry if my opinion and faith has offended any of you but I believe it to be the truth so I’ll keep on saying it.

By the way, don’t think the degrees impress me. But you have earned the right to brag about them that is for sure. But those fields are inherently biased and you know it.

And for let’s get real, sorry for the typo, like that means anything. Hear is another you can catch to make yourself proud. Feel better now? Wish I was as smart as you. And Jesus never tolerated or accepted sin. It is what He died for because it couldn’t be tolerated.

Kajen

It's amazing how you continue proving my point and don't even realize it. Incredible. You have read things into mine and David's post that are not there. You assume things about me that are totally false. Did I say ONE church was the reason I detest fundamentalism or religiosity? Have I not given example after example of the reasoning behind my disgust? I base my opinion on a MOUNTAIN of human history and observable/measurable human behavior. You even missed the part where I said I have my degrees in Sociology and Anthropology. You only saw and interpreted what you chose too. Once again, Incredible!

Is that all you can muster from your sad little desktop pulpit? First of all, it's "hear" - not here. Also, it's "amused", not ammused.

Moving along... You may have never directly said anything about choice, but let me help you put two and two together here:

As you deem homosexuality a sin, it HAS to be an act of choice in your eyes. After all, there's no such thing as an involuntary sin – correct? For one who professes to live a life of trying to walk in Jesus' shoes, maybe you should wisen up on some of his key teachings: tolerance and acceptance.

So yes, let's get real!

David,

I was an atheist most of my life. It was the saddest, darkest times I can remember and I had no hope because I lived for the here and now. It is only now that I have something, other than myself to live for. And it is not just God, but those I love as well. So you are preaching to the choir so to speak. I lived far too long under the atheist guise, I know what bull it really is. The things that gets me, why do atheist’s try so hard to remove any belief of God. If He is not real, why does it bother you so much that people believe He is. Is it maybe because you are afraid? Because, what if you are wrong? Then what?

Kajen

Wow! Typical. Completly not paying attention at all.

R F,

You have had a bad experience with one church so you decide all religion is evil? Is that close-mindedness akin to what you accuse Christians of? Mr. Pot, it is me Kettle.

I’m sorry you feel betrayed by the church, but I know for a fact that isn’t a representation of the whole. There are bad apples in every bunch, your bunch, my bunch and their bunch. You paint too broadly for such a closed mind. The Christians I know don’t go around gay bashing as you call it. They don’t protest funerals. The only ones I know that go door to door are asking if there is any help they can offer the person behind the door, no strings attached. So because you had a bad experience with your church, don’t negatively label the entire church as you claim we do with those not involved.

Unless of course you are okay with being a hypocrite.

Kajen

I will declare here and now that I am not anti-Christian. I am anti-religion. I think it is all the same. Religion, in all of its forms, is counter-productive to human progress. I give approval to the Buddhist no more than I do the Christian or any other form of faith. They all do their part to retard the progress of humanity and maintain us in the realm of superstition.

If you doubt this research the history of the Catholic church and find out how much scientific progress was defined as heresy and against the will of god. The current crop of creationist are the same. The same can be said for Islam or of the plethora of other forms of religious practice.

Religion is in opposition to democratic principles, too. The Church fought to maintain control over the lives of all. Everyone from the lowest serf to the highest nobles. It is why we call certain times in history the dark ages. All religions do this as well. From the theocratic regimes of Islam to the monks of Tibet to the wannabe theocratic forces of the American Religious Right.

Some will claim that religion has done so much good and point to certain individuals who have accomplished many good works. This is more to the credit of human ability than it is to religion because it was actual people who did this work. As in all times and places there are some people that rise to the top. Religion seeks to lay claim to the efforts of humanity as its own. These same religions would punish people for aspects of human nature declared as alleged sins created in the name of an illusionary god.

Of course, it is the default position of the religious that those who are not religious must be sad and depressed people without any hope or motivation. This idea is nothing more than a faulty argument based on the idea that meaning can only come from some outside force to which we must aspire. It is nonsense. My adoption of atheism did not turn me into a depressed and unhappy person working my way through life. It has simply affirmed in me the capacity for people to solve any problem we face without the need to placate some outside force.

I do long for a time when humanity is not at the mercy of superstition and at the mercy of those who claim authority over what “god” wants us to do.

David

Let's get real,

Can you please read the thread instead of assuming I made a comment I didn't make? I never said anything about choice. Why do most of you insist on putting words in my mouth. Is it because that is what you want to here because you think you can argue a certain point? Get real for sure. Your friend Chris is the one harping about choice. And why, I don't know, because I never mentioned it. By the way, glad your ammused.

Kajen

Kajen, you are beyond delusional. Thanks so much for today's round of laughs!

I particularly like how you deem it a 'fact' that there are no other true religions, and that homosexuals are that way by choice. That's comedy gold!!

BTW, at no time did I blame anyone else for my problems. Give me a break on the same tired ol' right wing remarks.

How dismal my outlook is? O contraire! My outlook on life isn’t totally focused on the afterlife so I’m very happy with here and now. My ethical standards aren’t based on superstition and subjectivity set by some messed up preacher or by fundamentally interpreting a loose collection 2000 year old writings. I have a very cheery outlook as long as I don’t have to tell some Bible pushing freak to get off my porch and out of my face. I’m quite content until I see some “preacher” and his nutjob “congregation” protesting funerals. And yes, I know the Phelps idiot is an extreme but it’s an extreme of EXACTLY what you and other so called Christians yammer on about, lesser or greater degrees, hate is still hate. I detest superstition, dogma, and/or fundamentalism in all its form and will speak out against it at every opportunity because of the evil it inflicts on society. I am very happy with me… especially after overcoming the evil of cult programming from the church I grew up in. Also, for the record, I was referring to straight people causing so many ills (although I do believe the “church” is a direct reflection and a tool). As long as I can remember I have listened to gay bashing wrapped up nicely in the Bible. Thought a little straight bashing that I can back up with facts was in order. Last time I checked straight culture rules the world. I was making an example of painting with a broad brush. The facts speak for themselves. Historically, depravity has been the primary field of the straight world. You think I don’t take responsibility for myself? LOLOLOLOL Once again, you have no clue what you’re talking about. I see how every step I take leads me to point a. and b. YOU on the other hand fail to grasp the implications of all the hate speech and homophobia vomited out from the pulpit. In fact you go as far as to claim that’s not what you’re doing with the garbage of “love the sinner, hate the sin stuff.” Try being on the other side for a while and tell me it’s not hate. The so called Christians on the far right are continuously attacking us. We have to endure DAILY examples of homophobia and bigotry (even internalized self hate within our own community because of a lifetime of brainwashing) but you all with your blinders on fail to see it or in the extreme act as if it’s justified. The same arguments being used here are the same used to justify evil throughout history.

R F,

You’re funny and yet sad at the same time. How dismal your outlook is. Blame everyone else for your problems. That’s the way to resolve them. You aren’t to blame for anything that has happened in your life, it is all the fault of the religious zealots. Come on. People are passionate about their faith. Yes sometimes they take them to extremes, but ruining the world? Wow. Is that why you hate the religious so much, because you don’t think you are responsible for anything? We are a society of depravity. Since the fall of man, we are all at fault. You and me, we are both part of the problem. I think the difference is, rather than blaming someone and whining about it, I honestly would like to see a change.

Kajen

Chris,

I did no such accusing. In fact someone else said there was Christian legislation being pushed down their throat. Read the entire thread before you start on the band wagon. Since when has this government who is attempting to widen the ever so growing gap between church and state push Christian legislation. What country do you folks live in? The legislation is anti-Christian and no, I refuse to do the work for you. Take it upon yourself to educate yourself with the facts. Sorry, work for your own wages. That’s one of the problems today, everyone wants a handout. Guess what, some things just can’t be obtained without a little sweat and labor. Good luck in your search.

You all love to wordsmith and putting words in our mouths. When have I ever said you are going door to door? Again, read the thread.

When did I choose not to be gay? Natural selection I imagine. I don’t know, never crossed my mind. I’m not preaching to anyone but I wonder why you think I am.

Kajen

Come on, Kajen, give us your evidence of the gay agenda being pushed through Congress. You are the one who has made the accusation, so back it up. And speaking of agendas, you certainly have a problem with this, yet I bet you have no problem with the heterosexual agenda, which if successful, will legislate morality under the guise of state and federal laws by effectively outlawing anything approaching gay marriage. Do you really want to go down the road of passing laws based on Christian principles that force people to live their private lives a certain way? People are against gay marriage because the Bible says it is a sin, and it will destroy the "sanctity" of marriage. Shoot...just by passing these laws that are based directly on Christianity, you are forcing a religious viewpoint on people who may not believe in God. Are you OK with that? As well, if you support this reasoning, will you also support a state and federal law that forbids a heterosexual man or woman from ever marrying again if they commit adultery, which is also a sin? Or are we going to let that one slide because it is a heterosexual thing, or because on a scale of 1 to 10, its sin factor is lower? I challenge you to provide evidence that gay people are going throughout our community, door-to-door, trying to convince people to become gay. On the other hand, I have had my share of Christians knocking on my door and shoving a Bible into my hand, telling me to read a certain passage, and trying to convince me that if I don't accept Jesus in my life then I am going to hell. You've got nerve coming here and lecturing us about gays forcing their agenda on others. (And please...don't accuse me of trying to stifle your freedom of speech). Finally, if being gay is a choice, then when in your life did you choose to not be gay?

I agree. It seems like they all think this is the first time we've heard it.

Like they're telling us something new.

Like they think we were born being non-believers.

Like we haven't YEARS of indoctrination, years of brainwashing, years of forced going-along.

They truly do not seem to understand that we've reached our conclusions after years - in my case, decades - of going along, questioning but not loudly, reading, studying, hoping, praying, and finally - FINALLY - seeing the light.

I suppose they don't know any better.

Maybe they believe that, if they put it in front of us, we'll suddenly see it their way and give in.

Who knows?

I am truly fed up with it.

You forgot how they seem surprised when those of us who have put up with their crap all these years finally fight back they start slinging unfounded accusations at us.

That parade you're talking about? You know, the right wing hetero crowd? They had a few of those not long ago - they called it a tea party.

Remember?

That's them - or at least a few of them.

They are outnumbered but believe they are the majority.

They've had a couple of decades to show what they've got, and when they did, they almost destroyed our country.

Now, when someone tries to fix it, what do they do?

They trash the fixers. They bad-mouth everyone except themselves.

They are in self-destruct mode and it's working.

Fewer and fewer people identify with their programs.

The holdouts live in Tennessee and some other southern states. Period.

The rest of the US is finally seeing the light.

As for that person who will not stop peddling his or her religion to people who are NOT interested, I believe he or she has some major problems.

Just like Doris. They can't force themselves on people any more, so they go out like little kids and try to pull on the grown-ups' sleeves and yell and get their attention.

It must be frustrating.

And they have the temerity to say there are more of us than them!!!

Doris looks like she actually likes the gay community. She knows an awful lot about them. Even the far-out ones she describes in her comment. They are not the majority, but she doesn't know or care.

There are people like that who follow those parades because of the titillation factor.

They enjoy it. But they pretend to be offended.

Finally, to the aforementioned person, there IS NOT outrage.

I'm annoyed by your continued insistence on spewing all the lines you've heard from the televangelists or whomever you worship.

The truth hurts, you say?

The truth never hurt anyone. I don't believe a word you are saying.

You simply chose this forum to spread your stuff - whatever you choose to call it - as though that's what this is for.

So be it. Do you thang. Have at it.

But don't expect respect from those of us who don't agree with you.

You could try giving some respect before thinking you've earned it.

This is NOT the "christians against the rest of the world forum."

It's just us woebegone people, trying to make it from one day to the next, being good, being law-abiding, not trying to push our beliefs on anyone else.

How hard is that for you to understand????

Personally, I wish all the Bible thumping holier than thouers who push the propaganda would shut up. They are nothing more than the American Taliban and Al-Qada. Simmons, your comment about the parade sickens me. You took the propaganda of the far right which shows ONE or TWO small groups at the far extreme of the community in the parade without showing the majority. How about we put all the freaks of the straight community on parade? How about we throw a parade for all the Bible thumping weekend drunks, child abusers, wife beaters, redneck bigots, thieves, lechers, and the rest of the scum and use the same broad brush you did to say this is all straight people. As far a societal depravity straight people seem to have the corner on the market. As for my anger, I have every right to be angry. You people have screwed up the world so bad but want to blame me and my group for your despicable actions and behaviors. You want to turn a blind eye to the FACT that your oppressive actions have dominoed into problems and acting out behavior across the board. In EVERY area where the so called moral majority rules social problems are out of control. Moral majority! What a joke. Disgusting bunch of hypocrites with nothing better to do that to attempt to tell me how to live my life with threats of hell fire when you refuse to even look at the evil within your own "churches." The Bible banging evangelical extremists are on the way out. I look forward to the day to see them disappear completely.

Eric,

Only when you mistate them. Then they are not facts at all but rather lies.

Kajen

Just as I figured. Facts are just a nuisance, aren't they?

Eric Taylor,

I'm not going to do the work for you. Enlighten yourself. There is usually a little white box at the top of your computer screen called a search box. Simply type in gay agenda or gay agenda in congress and have fun. Come on, are you actually believing there is more Christian legislation being debated. Read up man.

Kajen

Enlighten us all as to what is being "pushed through." Speaking of legitimate bills here, not attention-grabbing propaganda which has absolutely ZERO chance of advancing whatsoever.

RF,

Since you brought it up, I’m not pushing anything down anyone’s throat. But by your angry tone, and forceful in nature words, sure looks like you are trying to push your beliefs down other’s throats. I read the string of comments. Seems like the Christian view is the minority here, so why are you so disgruntled?

Take your friend Oliver’s advice and get over yourself. A person’s beliefs are that person’s beliefs. I’m saddened by the fact that you must force your opinion on others for what? to make yourself feel better about yourself? To belittle others of faith who maybe, just maybe, feel in their hearts that they can help someone. That’s in my opinion where many Christians appear to fail. We don’t understand that God calls whom He calls. Those He don’t there is just nothing we can do but speak the truth in love.

And just so you know, there is currently more legislation trying to be pushed through that is adverse to God and those that would like Him in the public once again. Take a minute to check out what is actually being pushed through local, state and federal legislative bodies at this point in time before you make a false statement like you did.

Please know your facts. The moral majority in this country, the Christian base, is silenced as if they were the minority because of people like you who can’t accept that they are what they are because God has called them.

Kajen

I'm not a Christian and I'm sick of you and your people attempting shove your religion down my throat by legislation. No, it's not your opinion that we have a problem with. It's the fact that your so called opinion is constantly being pushed in our faces as fact. It isn't.

Oliver,

Tell me exactly who did I judge? It is people like you who bash Christians for believing as they do. You are judging me friend. Okay, so you don’t believe. I’m not asking anyone to believe. I’m simply stating the truth. Hurts doesn’t it? If not, why the outrage?

Who is trying to force you to do anything? I said homosexuality is a sin as revealed by God in His word to us. In my opinion, I think your problem is you think my God is not your God. Guess what, He is. He’ll judge you just as he will me. My only pass is that I have faith that His Son took my place. I honestly can’t say where that puts you, but since you have studied so much, maybe you can tell me.

And don’t lie. You are not fooling anybody. It is exactly Christianity or any God professing person and their beliefs that you and those like you protest.

And for the record again, I’m not judging anyone. I’m stating fact from God’s word. He’ll be judging. My conscience is clear, but judging by your antagonism, I have to wonder about your’s.

And since you are so studied, you’ll no it is not feeling superior that makes one superior. It is humility. The lower to the ground I am, the closer to God I become. Try it. Couldn’t hurt.

Remember learned one, first will be last and last will be first.

I’ve been over myself. Maybe it is time to take your own advice.

Kajen

First of all, most of us are not Christian bashers.

We are protesting the attitudes of those who would foist their religious dogma upon those of us who are not interested.

If Christians go about their work as followers of Christ, they usually don't bother me or most others.

But the ones I'm talking about are not doing that. Their first and most beloved pastime is bashing those of us who disagree with them, proselytizing where it is inappropriate and unwelcome, and more or less just shoving their religious fervor in our faces.

For your information, I have studied the Bible in depth, and was, for many years, a blind and stupid follower, doing just as I had been indoctrinated to do.

At length, with maturity and more common sense, I got over that, and became the person I am today.

You cannot and will not force me back into that mold. It will not be done.

THAT is what we protest. Not Christianity or the followers of Christ's teachings as was written in the Bible by people who did not know him.

There are plenty of Christians in my life who go about the business of doing good works, helping others, being truly good people because they believe in those teachings.

The difference is they impress those around them by their works, by their deeds, by the way they live their lives - not by their constant battering of others.

It's grand of you to believe you know that homosexuality is sinful.

So is judging others. You know, the one with a threat added to it - judge not lest you be judged likewise.

You should save your judgment for those who are interested in your brand of religion.

If, as you believe, there will be a judgment and God will do that judging, you'd better hope you are not judged as harshly as you have done to others.

Finally, I do not think that conservative Christians don't have fun.

On the contrary - I believe they are filled with joy and perverse pleasure when they bad-mouth everyone who is not them.

I believe they wake up in the morning, energized like the bunny because they think they are superior, they think they know more than the rest of us, and they, by gosh, are gonna see to it the rest of us hear about their beliefs.

THAT - the judging, the holier-than-thou attitudes, and the corrupting of religious beliefs to suit themselves - is what makes me tired of that brand of christianity.

Get over yourself!

First of all, for all you Christian bashers, Christianity is not the only religion that in its conservative roots does not tolerate homosexuality but it is the only true religion.

Second of all, you all fail to realize that your childish arguments are based on the same thing that crafty serpent was able to get our earthly parents to do and that is place yourselves on the same level as an Almighty God.

Don’t pull out the stones just yet. Stones!!! That shows your ignorance to what the inspired Word of God teaches. Tell me who Jesus stoned? Tell me what stoning He condoned? If you would take the time to read what God has revealed to us, then maybe you can talk intelligently about it.

Yes folks, homosexuality is sinful. It is part of dealing with the lust of this world that ensnares so many of us. And so many of us reject the only One who can truly set us free. You are a slave to what controls you.

As this world embraces the immoral things will get worse. It is a shame, people seem to think that if you are a conservative Christian that there is no fun anymore. I’ll attest to the fact that I wasn’t living until I died to this world.

Kajen

Funny how the more Religion is forced into American Life the Divorce Rate climbs higher, more single parents, more drug use and just more of everything they preach against.

I can just imagine. LOLOLOLOL Dang-it, where's Eric when we need him?

I knew she couldn't resist too much longer!

She's so full of it!

Hey, I'm not gay but can I join your parade?

I'll carry a banner or something.

Sounds like fun.

Protesters. We can call ourselves some clever thing too. Teabaggers has already been done.

Alert the media. They'll be out in droves. So will the police. It'll be a blast!

You wanna?

Stay in the closet? Oh no no no. In fact I think I'll organize a gay pride march down your street?

Wow.... just wow! The depth of ignorance of some of you hardcore Bible thumping ultra-conservatives is purely amazing. Thanks for the belly laughs...

Oliver, there are a few of us who see the truth that religion has always brought out the absolute worse in a human being.... that and politics. Politicians have known this for years and learn very quickly how to manipulate those passions to garnish votes and/or redirect the populous. The gay issue has been one of the best “wag-the-dog” issues of the last 30 years. Works almost as well as Regan invading everyone under the son every time his ratings dropped.

One more thing I have to say about this mess of religion peddling: Atheists won't be knocking on your door, trying to convert you. And they won't be trying to blow your butt up.

Only the extreme right wing segment specializes in those activities.

So there!

As long as their are people who think being gay is a "choice" the bigotry will continue. I'm personally done with this topic. Sick to death of the asinine stupidity that never changes.

I merely spoke my opinion and now my conscience is clear. Be it right or wrong, I simply stated what I feel. I mean no offense to anyone.

I apologize to anyone that found me offensive. I still think that "Homosexuality" is wrong. But everyone is entitled to freedom of choice. I will not stricken you down, nor condemn you for being so.

Eric, I do understand your point of view. I've seen some of my friends endure the same hardships when being forces into things. Each person has to find what is right for him or her. I respect you and everyone on this forum.

I know that we have debated and wrestled. But I wish each of you to know that I have the utmost respect for each and every one of your opions. I think that we all learn from one another. And just because I feel a certain way and express it, does not mean that you are less because you feel differently.

Thank you for debating the issue with me. I do feel empathy for the situation that you were raised in Eric. You are correc in that each person has to come to terms and take a stand for what he or she believes in. That is all that I am doing. I do not wish to force my religion on anyone. I was only offering.

I am not judging anyone, just expressing my personal feelings and getting to know new people. It has been a very enlightening experience. Thank you all very sincerely. I thoroughly enjoyed the debate. I look for to future debates as well.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Flanagan
Pax Vobiscum!

I AGREE MR NATHAN JONES 110%.YOU SAID IT RIGHT

Ya know, Mr. Flanagan, I was nearly a carbon-copy of yourself for about 18 years. I did my best to correct others' beliefs about evolution, about other religions, knocking on doors asking folks that if they were to die that instant, where they would spend eternity. I "led" many folks in the "sinners prayer", friends, family, random people in random places where our church held mission trips. I listened only to Christian music, and shunned secular society as a whole. I have never in my life been physically or emotionally attracted to the opposite sex, and as I grew older into my teens I became more and more depressed. I prayed deeply that god would "change" me, to make me like my friends. It was a terribly isolated and lonely place. Hearing the pastors hammer on the subject of homosexuality and the eternal damnation that I was sure to face if I didnt change myself drove me to absolutely dread going to church. In our house growing up, church wasnt an option, it was a requirement every time the doors were open. So I played by the rules, and the day I became a legal adult, I refused to attend. I was booted from my household, and began a new journey. I started to see outside the blinders that were placed on me as a child. I began to understand that the world is not inherently evil. Its been a very long road to find my true identity, and Ive never been happier in my life.
To assume that anyone who doesnt agree or accept your own brand of an afterlife is certainly arrogant, and shows a very narrow minded view of our existence.

Mr. Neely,

"Why should I trust to your ability or desire to use terms accurately." Answer= The same reason that I should trust yours. These are after all just opinions and not scientific facts being debated here. Arguing issues over which we conflict only strengthens our minds.

Incorrect. I was not arguing opinion. I was arguing science. Evolution is not an opinion. An opinion is something you have when you don't have the facts. I am always very careful and very aware of what words I use and how I mean them. I use words that mean what they are supposed to mean instead of what I want them to mean. If your going to seek to debate with people then you should make doubly or even triply sure of the meaning of the words you are going to use. If people are going to have a debate and a conversation then agreeing on the terms is an important facet of that.

Its simply really. Don't use words which you don't know the meaning for. Don't misrepresent words to make your point. Don't deliberately use words to express a falsehood. Semantics is crucial.

David

Donna,

That is my personal point of view and let me explain why I view it that way. First of all sin is sin....there are not two ways about. Second, how God deals with and punishes that sin obviously varies by degress. For example, take King David who committed adultery. He was punished by God as their was turmoil all the way through David's family after he committed the intial sin. But in Sodom in Gemorrah which gave into sexual immorality (i.e.-homosexuality primarily) and corruption, God destroyed and left no trace of its existence or inhabitants. And why would God stresss that it is the "desolation of abomination"?

Now obviously, and I could be wrong, but in my opinion God has varying degrees of punishments for various sins. Some punishments are more harsh than others. So that I can only surmise that some sins bring more death and destruction upon societies and manking than others. Homosexuality appears to be one of those things. But in God's eyes sin is sin. I just fear God and his wrath. If he destroyed societies for homosexuality but only allowed strife to follow King David's family for adultery, then I can only surmise that there are varying degrees of anger that God has for sin.

And for the record in the Old Testament over 50,000 Israelites were wiped out at once by God for given into sexual immorality (i.e.-homosexuality, trading wifes, orgies and worshiping false gods). This was done to show His level of tolerance of such actions.

So I think it does depend on the sin as to the degree of punishment that one receives. But all sins will inevitably be dealt with.

It is my fear and respect for God and what God can do and has done to those who practice homosexuality in the past. It makes me fear for our once great nation that is quickly pummeling into a pit of no return.

I am glad to hear that you have been a Christian for thirty years. This is just my point of view. It does not have to be anyone elses. I just don't wish what happened to other societies to befall the U.S.A.

Also, I do not wish for souls to be lost to homosexuality when I speak against it. If one chooses it, so be it. Be I do have a write to speak my peace. And if I do not offer a way out, the people's blood would be on my hands.

I have offered, they have rejected obviously. I hope that some behind closed doors have not. If you have accepted Jesus into your heart good. If not, please give Him a chance. He will change your life.

It's okay to be open-minded but not okay to have an "anything" goes society as that would be anarchy. We must play be the rules that God established if we are to survive as a nation.

R.F.,

Glad to hear that you have your degrees in science. Since the directive was addressing Mr. Neely and you responded, am I to assume that you R.F. and Mr. Neely are one in the same?

If no, then I am glad to hear that you are an educated person. Then you obviously know how to respond when spoken to or are addressed specifically in a given conversation.

Mr. Douglas,

Yes, you may check out my posts on Nancy as I refer to her as, "Pefloosi", "botox face" or whatever else. I am just so utterly disgusted by her presence that I can no longer contain myself as any legitimate American is. I never said that I was "holier than thou", in fact, I believe that I stated that I have to pray daily for forgiveness as I am still human and slip on occasion. Pelosi carries things too far for even my gay, liberal friends who want to see her ousted as well.

Mr. Neely,

"Why should I trust to your ability or desire to use terms accurately." Answer= The same reason that I should trust yours. These are after all just opinions and not scientific facts being debated here. Arguing issues over which we conflict only strengthens our minds.

Just out of curiousity what fields do you and R.F. have scientific backgrounds in? Just curious.

Mr. Jones,

It is not wise to make fun of the name of Jesus or God and use it loosely. I would not wish to be in your shoes. But you have the freedom to do as you wish. There are some things that should be respected above all else.

Mr. Flanagan you wrote

"And yes, I do place "adultery" and the rest of the Ten Commandments on the slightly lower human scale than "Homosexuality" from a Christian view point. My reasoning is that God considers it, "the desolation of abomination" or a mockery of His works on the earth. But bear this in mind, I do not place the Ten Commandments that much less than "Homosexuality". I just figure that if God considers it, "the desolation of abomination" then it must be worse than the rest. And I fear and respect God and what he says. However, the article here was not about anything other than, "Homosexuality". Thus, why I refrain from other commentary that would be skewed to the topic at hand"

Well I have to say in my thirty plus years of being a Christian and a church member, I've yet to hear it explained in that way. Just to make sure that I understand what you are saying and let me repeat this...you are saying that God wanted us to have the Ten Commandments to live by as Law but there were worse sins than those listed in the commandments??? Why would He do that?

Is it not extremely hard to separate sins the way you do? How do you keep all that straight?

My advice as a fellow Christian, get out of the Old Testament so much and read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John etc.. It's wonderful reading and easy to understand. It's pretty much in black and white...and red :)

For the record I do have my degrees in science.

I just talked to Jesus and he said, "that the whole homosexual thing, well, that was my bad. I got a little vengeful towards a camel rental outfit that over charged me for my carry on bags and the owner just happened to be in a same sex partnership. I just wanted to get even. I'm over it now, tell him to come to church. I could use his ten percent too!"

Now, this matter is settled.
Tell me I did not just talk to Jesus. I'll "prove" it to you...

Mr. Flanagan,

I guess you missed the reference to "argument from authority." I did not say that I didn't have a degree in science. I said that I don't have a degree in the "biological sciences" and you simply chose to think that I don't have a background in the sciences.

Mr. Flanagan you have admitted to using terms that don't really apply or that have been exaggerated to make your point. Why should I trust to your ability or desire to use terms accurately.

You used the statement, "Each intricately designed and specifically functional by design." This statement is a defacto assertion that a designer (ie god) was the source.

David

I, for one, think we are giving this man (or woman) exactly what they want - attention.

If we continue to give credence to his comments, he will continue to post his gobbledygook.

I, for one, think he's full of it.

Oh, and by the way, if you'd like to see just what kind of "christian" he really is, check out his comment on the story about Nancy Pelosi.

There's your answer.

Also, the term "most scientists" is used loosely here.

In other words Mr. Flanagan you misrepresented the information to reinforce your own belief system. Its dishonest and just what I have come to expect from diehard creationist.

I, for one, would very much like to see your references in this matter.

David

Mr Neely,

Since you do not have a degree in the field of Science, I will accept your opinion. However, where you stated, "On the subject of flagellum and mitochondria. Your inability to grasp the possible causes of such things without resorting to God does not mean that god is the answer. In fact your default assumption of a creator is evidence that you really don't understand science. The solution is not "too far out there" it is simply to far out there for you."

I never stated that it was God or that it was not. From a personal belief, yes I do believe it was God. From a scientific point of view, yes scientists are having to rethink theories now. It will be interesting what the scientific breakthroughs will give us knowlege of in the future to come. I hope to be a part of that research when the breakthrough comes to pass.

Okay, so maybe "random chance" is a poor term for me to use. I use the term very loosely when talking about evolution. If you prefer, "natural selection", "adaption", or some other term that falls within the many terms used in the scientific community I will be happy to oblige. Evolution is after all a "theory" not a "science" per say. Just tell me what is acceptable in your terms.

Mr. Oliver,

I never negated the fact that, "Thomas Gray wrote: 'Where ignorance is bliss, ‘Tis folly to be wise.' " I merely quoted the catch phrase that originated from a Washington Times paper where the article was entitled, "Ignorance is Bliss". Although, it is probably true the catch phrase originated with Thomas Gray, I was merely quoting the catch phrase from the published article in the Washington Times and the story to which in pertained to.

Although, you have increased my knowledge about Thomas Gray now and I thank you for that very much.

Now back to "Homosexuality" and "God". ;-)

R.F.,

To date the Jews are the only society to have survived and maintained their individuality as a people. They are the only race of people from any earlier civilization that have survived throughout time and throughout all other Empires or World Superpowers and maintained their culture. Homosexuality was not accepted previously and if it happened it did not go unpunished by God. He will tolerate the Jews for they are His people and He has a covenant with them which He cannot break because He is a sovereign God.

However, other nations and societies He will not tolerate this type of behaviour. He will briing his wrath upon America and destroy us the rest of the way if we do not turn from such wickedness as Homosexuality. And that I mind you is just one of many factors from which we must turn away. But the article is specifically related to "Homosexuality" and "God's Word" in this article.

I really wish we would quit straying from the topic at hand.

Also, the term "most scientists" is used loosely here. And by the way, does it have to be website that I am going to? Ever heard of a library, books, college campus or doing extensive research? I don't have the materials right in front of me at the moment. The books are far too numerous to count. I would have to get back to you with specific names and quotes and would be happy to do so to back my claims.

Once again for someone who supposedly so knowledgeable about science you really don't seem to understand the meaning in scientific terms of the word theory.

Evolution does not state that modifications happen by random chance. Evolution is anything but random and if you would actually pay attention to the workings of evolution instead of relying on the cognitive dissonance you so readily display with pride you would know this. The world itself selects for the best adaptation and promotes that through reproduction. It is anything but random.
Perhaps this will explain things better than I:
"There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn't understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don't interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating. (talkorigins.org)"

On the subject of flagellum and mitochondria. Your inability to grasp the possible causes of such things without resorting to God does not mean that god is the answer. In fact your default assumption of a creator is evidence that you really don't understand science. The solution is not "too far out there" it is simply to far out there for you.

David

If you READ others' comments instead of promoting your own ignorance with your gobbledygook, you might have read the REAL origin of "ignorance is bliss," that "Mr. Oliver" posted a little earlier: "BTW, just so you'll know, the phrase originated here: the eighteenth-century English poet Thomas Gray wrote: 'Where ignorance is bliss, ‘Tis folly to be wise.' "

There you go. Put that in your bong and smoke it.

Miss Demeanor,

The one where I actually try to lead people to Christ and post an actual prayer in public with the name, "Jesus" attached to it. Nowhere have I previously posted that I am a professed Christian. I have proclaimed my stance today.

Yes, you are correct in the fact that I have exerted strong conservative views. I am a very conservative die hard American. But now, I am an equally professed Christian and will post prayers to attempt to lead others to Christ and be a witness in these latter times. To fail to do so would be both uncivilized and derelicting my duties to give others the opportunity to come to know Christ and stand out for that which is right in a world gone a rye.

And to Mr. Taylor and Mr. Neely,

Since both of you are too lazy to lookup the true story of "Ignorance is Bliss", I will tell. "In July 1881 President James A Garfield was shot by an assassin. He died two months later-because his doctors could not agree on the location of the bullet in his body (they had no X-ray in those days). Garfield's personal physician, Dr. Bliss, was certain that the bullet was in one area. A specialist, Dr. Weiss, insisted it was in another."

"The two doctors argued back and forth. The result? No operation, and the president died. When the autopsy later showed that Dr. Weiss had been correct, a Washington Newspaper quipped, "Ignorance is Bliss".

What we do not know can hurt us and bring us suffering and pain.

I hope that helps you out Mr. Taylor and Mr. Neely. Now maybe you'll see what I meant by, "Ignorance if Bliss".

The "doesn't make sense to most scientist" is cracking me up. I want to find the wingnut website he's quoting. Seems like I read some of this mess on a couple of nutty creationism sites. For the record creationism is NOT science due to its presumption of a supernatural power. That's not science. That's Dark Ages superstition.

Jews? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL You have got to be kidding with that. If you want to go there then how about this. Rome, Aztecs, Greek City States, Indus Valley City States, Ancient Sumerian... all still exist. Since you seem to think that a civilization that bears NO resemblance to its earlier forms still exists. As for acceptance of homosexuality you need to check your facts. Judaism does not foam at the mouth over homosexuality. In fact the modern nation of Israel was one of the first to allow openly gay and lesbian citizens to serve in the military. Civilizations rise. Civilizations fall. It’s the natural cycle of all human societies. Outside pressures, natural disasters, wars, or simple social evolution and change will cause the demise and alteration of all societies.

Mr. Neely,

I would like to suggest that maybe you consider studying Microbiology for a change. You would be amazed at the complexity of the findings that are now being discovered on the microscopic levels and how complex systems are on these levels. Such technology did not exist ten years ago as new higher powered microscopes are able to examine complex systems more intricately and scientists are baffled as to how to explain these new findings as previous theories (i.e.-evolution which suggests that these happened by random chance do not hold up as Darwin's theory had surmised). Even Darwin himself stated that his was only a "Theory" and that science at any time could disprove his "Theory".

Example- The flagellum of a bacterium-supposedly a simple whiplike tail made of protein that allows the bacterium to propel itself around. Without it, it would be motionless and would die. Once thought a simple protein to have evolved, the flagellum now examined under a newer state of the art microscope is showing that the flagellum has as many if not more parts to make it work than the propeller on a motor boat. To say that happened out of random chance is just too far out their. Scientists are now having to rethink these theories.

Another is Mitochondrial DNA. Examined under more recent microscopes, these once simple structures are being found to have their own complex systems comparable to the systems of the human body. Each intricately designed and specifically functional by design. To state that this happened out of random chance does not make sense to most scientists. So they are having to rethink their theories without compromising the entire basis that the scientific community has been built on. In essence, everything the scientific community believed to this point was based on incorrect information and is having to be re-examined.

So it does pay when one does have experience in a stated field. But one has to get very deep in explanation when trying to battle. I try to remain shallow on blogs. I try to keep things simple and easy to understand.

By the way, did you lookup where "Ignorance is Bliss" came from? Just curious. You really will be amused by the story if you just look it up.

"Mr. Oliver" is neither gay nor an Atheist, so you're wasting your time with me.

I see through your Eddie Haskell play-acting, as there are many thousands just like you - butter wouldn't melt in your mouth, but you are just as dangerous as a cocked gun.

You try to sound educated, but there are giveaways that trip you up.

You really wanted someone to take you up on that urban legend about "ignorance is bliss" but no one has.

Yes, you are a piece of work.

You need to cast your line to those who are interested instead of playing with the big boys when you are not equipped to do so.

Think about it - who do you think you're fooling here? Anyone?

None of us will fall for your fake holiness.

So give it a rest.

BTW, just so you'll know, the phrase originated here: the eighteenth-century English poet Thomas Gray wrote: “Where ignorance is bliss, / ‘Tis folly to be wise.’”

There you go. Put that in your bong and smoke it.

Mr. Flanary,

I have read your replies here and in other places throughout the Times News, and I think we have differing definitions of the word closet.

When most people use the term they mean that they keep their true self hidden and put on a false front in order to fit in with their peers.

You however have never put on false fronts or pretended to be anything other than a very conservative Christian.

So exactly which closet are you emerging from?

R.F.,

You are correct. I cannot name one because not one has remained in existence that adopted homosexuality as an accepted norm.

However, Rome, Sodom and Gemorrah all accepted homosexuality as a norm and they are no longer in existence.

So again, I challenge you to name one superpower society that is still standing today that is still in existence and has lasted throughout history that has accepted homosexuality as an accepted "norm".

I can tell one race of people that has survived throughout all of history and does not accept homosexuality as "norm". Answer= The Jews and Israel.

Mr. Oliver,

Would you be my neighbor and come to State Line Baptist Church with me on Sunday?

I extended my offer politely and you never commented back. I wish to come out of the closet and profess my new found gay friend that I wish to lead to Christ. Being a Christian and professing it publicly was one thing I had kept in the closet and remained silent for too long. This article along with your posts (especially Mr. Taylor) is what pre-empted me and was my inspiration to come out of my closet and profess myself, my beliefs and stand for what I believe.

Thank you Mr. Taylor, R.F., Mr. Neely and Donna for helping start my journey to lead others to Christ. You are all my inspiration and prove why I need to do what I need to do. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Mr. Flanagan,

I do have a degree but it is not in the biological sciences nor does it need to be. The scientific method means that I don't have to be a specialist to accept the findings of scientists in fields which I do not practice. This is exemplified in the fact that I do not need a degree specializing in nuclear fission to know the science behind such things. If you know science and logical reasoning then you should recognize the fallacy that you perpetrated with this one.

Perhaps Mr. Flanagan if your having to block off part of your reasoning to keep your belief systems in harmony you should examine why. I am saddened when anyone admits to willingly shutting down their reasoning mind to keep from conflicting with a deeply held belief that they are unwilling to modify in the face of evidence.

David

Name ONE civilization, period, that has survived? You can't, but as usual you will say it's the "homersexuals." Whatever. No more attention paid to you.

It might interest people to know that not only was this great nation NOT founded upon Christian beliefs, but that at least 2 of our more prominent forefathers were in fact atheists.

Look it up:

Thomas Jefferson
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Ben Franklin
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_4.html

Also, the idea that homosexuals need to be saved from themselves simply because they're homosexual is patently ridiculous. If said homosexual is engaging in dangerous and/ or illegal activities, sure. But I would expect someone to try to help that person regardless of their sexuality.

So how about we all just stay out of each others' bedrooms and leave it alone?

Look, my contention is this. At the very moment anyone makes the statement that it is their duty as a Christian to witness it's an automatic assumption of superiority. Therefore, in the mind of the speaker the rest of us are inferior.

Donna,

It has contributed to the demise and the degradation of the traditional "nuclear family" that once existed in America. It has caused instability in homes (i.e.-spouse leaving their traditional mates for members of the same sex), rapid spread of diseases (AIDS as one example), destruction of traditional boundaries and laws that are both morally and ethically sound which contribute to a functional society as a whole resulting in chaos (anything goes and if you say anything against me you will be labeled as a hate monger). Soon, anything will be acceptable and you, your family, your grandchildren will get to live in a state where anarchy is the rule of the day. And no value will be placed on any belief systems because they will all be meaningless. You will not be able to profess Chrisitianity or even be an open Christian as it will be labeled at hate crime as it already is in some countries (i.e.-Germany and Canada). Sound if you cannot preach or teach The Bible, then you cannot be a Christian, because just reading and professing The Bible labels you as a hate monger in society It's very nature goes against norms and values of a structured society. These are just some ways that it indiretly affects you and your family. It will get far worse, trust me.

Name one nation (Superpower), just one that has functioned throughout History and is still in existence that professes homosexuality as being a natural part of their heritage?

And yes, I do place "adultery" and the rest of the Ten Commandments on the slightly lower human scale than "Homosexuality" from a Christian view point. My reasoning is that God considers it, "the desolation of abomination" or a mockery of His works on the earth. But bear this in mind, I do not place the Ten Commandments that much less than "Homosexuality". I just figure that if God considers it, "the desolation of abomination" then it must be worse than the rest. And I fear and respect God and what he says. However, the article here was not about anything other than, "Homosexuality". Thus, why I refrain from other commentary that would be skewed to the topic at hand.

What about this theory: this "Eddie Haskell" character (Flanigan) might be a closet - ahem! - person of another persuasion.

Sometimes, those who protest the loudest are trying to convince themselves.

Maybe the reason he wants you to come to his church and meet with him is so he can live out some kind of fantasy.

All this mealy-mouthed nonsense from the Church of the Anti-Everything makes me need to go to the bar (in my house, not on the street) and make a nice gin and tonic and relax.

Proselytising on a public forum shows desperation, IMHO.

I feel so sorry for these people. They deny themselves all the simple joys of life, and are angry when others indulge in human joy.

They are jealous.

Just pity them. They cannot be happy.

Oh and Mr. Neely,

Just curious, but do you have a college major degree in Biology or any other science to back your standing for that matter? Just curious! I have had sooo much college on studying Biology and Evolution that it makes me want to puke. Do you know how easy it is to seperate your personal beliefs (i.e.-creationism) and see things one way working towards a degree in another (Biology-i.e.-Evolution)?

Sadly, it is no fun. For all that I know, you've had as much science as I have had. Or maybe more, maybe less...but that would just be my theoretical point of view. Anyway, in reality you have given me as much to support your credentials as I have given you of mine. And for all that you and I know, well we may both very well be ignorant. Yet again I will reiterate..."to be ignorant is Bliss".

I do appreciate your opinion and commentaries though. Thank you for your constructive criticism and feedback of my arguements.

Mr. Flanagan, please tell me how homosexuality has harmed me or my family, indirectly even, since you don't know me personally?

I can say that for a fact that adultry however has harmed...not my immediate family here at home but a very close family member and friend. Do you place as much emphasis on adultry as you do homosexuality? One is explicitly in the Ten Commandments and one is not. Wonder why?

Mr Neely,
Do you know to story behind, "Ignorance is Bliss"?

If not, research Dr. Bliss. You'll find it quite amusing where the saying came from.

R.F.,

Posting opinions on a website or blog is hardly the same as going to one's home and pushing a certain set of beliefs on them. Yes, I know that there are congregations from churches that do that. I am not that type of person. I would never push or shove my religion on anyone. However, I will offer it on a website and those who wish to read it may and those who don't care for it...well, that is up to them.

If you would like to discuss agnosticism, I would be glad to do so. One of my best friends is both homosexual and a professed atheist. Do I think or speak less of him for that? No, I hold in the highest regard as he does me. He knows that I am a religious conservative. Like I stated before, we have adult discussions about religious and sexual matters. We respect each others opinions equally. He does not force his and I do not force mine. I would never come to your house to force my religion or beliefs on you.

However, let's say you and I were friends. We start talking about the various religions. Which I do find all religions interesting and respect those who practice their individual beliefs. If you started talking about "agnosticism", I would not get in some deep heated debate with you and say, "my religion is better than yours because....". I am more mature than that. I do have personal convictions just as you do. I respect thoses. Equally, I hope that you respect mine. I am not trying to force Christianity, Baha-i, Hinduism, or any religion upon anyone. However, I am commenting on what the article referenced and that was on, "Homosexuality" and "God's Law" within the subject parameters.

I have not chosen to harm, degrade, demise, nor slight anyone on this blog. To do so would be wrong. Be it wrong or right, I have merely expressed my opinion.

And to Donna, I understand what you are saying. And yes what you are saying is partially true. However, Homosexuality does pose more of risk to you and your beliefs than you truly realize. Study your History (i.e.-Sodom and Gemorrah and One of the leading factors to the demise of the Roman Empire). You'll find that they do play a bigger part in the demise of society as a whole than you could've ever imagined.

Finally, R.F, please don't tell me that the "Giant Spaghetti Monster" is not real. I don't think that I could cope with the reality of it all. I do believe in the Giant Spaghetti Monster...I do...I do...I do!

Mr. Flanagan,

"
There are many "theories" about evolution. That is why I do not believe in evolution but in Creationism. Creationism is the only one that proves itself more and more everyday in the the scientific community. And it is the only one that is continually fought to be kept silent."

You keep referencing "ignorance is bliss" and you keep reinforcing it with every post.

Creationism has not "proven itself" to the scientific community just because people at the "Creationism Research Institute" say that it is so. Creationism fails as a "theory" because of its complete lack of testability. Evolution has provided plenty of backup for its proposals and fits into the actual evidence that is found where as Creationism does not. If fact, the proofs of creationism completely fails the tests that makes something a valid scientific theory -- testability and predictability.

Mr. Flanagan i don't care what you believe in. That is your personal prerogative. However, I do care when people try to misrepresent science to back up their position. I would suggest that you study on science and the scientific method before trying to use it in an argument but that suggestion is likely to fall on deaf ears. It would assist your attempts to use words like evolution and theory if you actually knew the scientific meaning of those terms.

D11011101

Mr. Flanagan -

why would anyone change their lifestyle and ask god to forgive them and all that other junk when they can continue living the way that makes them happy and recite that mess on their deathbed? after all, that's all that has to be done to go to heaven, right? RIIIIIIGHT! unbelievable.