It's really hard to believe that the KPD and Times-News is getting this kind of response from folks for doing their jobs. Rather the gambling supporters like it or not, it is illegal, as is booking, moonshine, schedule II narcotics, and the method one used to carry a gun. This sounds like a disaster just waiting to happen. I guess if one of them had their head blown off for appearing to cheat then it would be ok to go in there and stop the illegal activity. This is the mentality of this area? What makes these old fogies so special that they are exempt from the law and the consequences of THEIR OWN behavior? Driving 65 mph in Sullivan County is an infringement on my personal freedom, but if I get a ticket I'll take it like a MAN.

Ms. Lowe, Mr. Hays is entirely correct when he states that we do not have any moral obligation to abide by unjust laws. We simply comply to avoid harrasment by the "armed thugs" who enforce the unjust laws. Ms. Lowe, your references to "Speeding, red lights, rape, murder..." in questioning what laws are unjust is simply wrong. Laws that protect citizens from harm by other citizens are not unjust laws. Meddling in the general public's private lives, enforcing laws which are entirely outdated or that are an infringment on the freedoms of this country are unjust laws. Simply because a governing body creates a law absolutely does not validate said law as "just."

Dear Mr. Hayes, you said we have no moral obligation to abide by unjust laws. Well, who decides what laws are unjust? According to the way you are writing, its up to each individual person to decide what laws they wish to abide by. That might be great for you, but wonder what other laws some people might think is unjust? Speeding, red lights, rape, murder???? Frankly, I like for the Police to enforce the laws that we have. Right now, I feel pretty safe here. However, if everyone got to choose which laws they abide by and chose not to abide by, nobody would be safe!!

Lisa: I appreciate your response. The fact is, however, that we have no -moral- obligation to abide by unjust laws. We don't "have to go by it" except to the extent that we are afraid of the government's armed thugs putting us in jail. Sadly, I'm too busy living an actual life and doing actually productive things to put it on hold to run for office. That's a game for the wealthy plutocrats who have nothing better to do with their lives than stick their noses in other peoples' business.

A great overview of the nullification process Mr. Thomas. I don't recall once hearing that word or its definition throughout school. I find that there are plenty of misdemeanor laws, as well as a few felonies, that could very well be nullified if people cared enough or simply used common sense. Though taking any case through trial can be an extraordinary cost, and risking a much more harsh sentence as opposed to simply taking a plea bargain is a very tough decision to make. It's almost a "catch 22" scenario in itself, and it seems thats the way it was intended.

There are other ways to send a message regarding this type of police action. What the law does not want you to know is you may indeed have a choice.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html

They don't teach about it in schools anymore, but the citizens do have the final say in what is right and wrong.

In comment to John Hays letter: Mr Hays, if you think that the gambling statue is not right and shouldn't be on the books, please run for state senate or state rep and change it. Also, you could contact your senator or rep and ask them to change it. But until its changed, its the law and we have to go by it. I do agree with you that some laws should be changed, however, I'm going about it by writing my reps and senators. I do hear back from them, so I know they are getting my concerns. Nothing is ever done, but thats all I can do. Yes, this country is in bad shape politicaly. Sad, but true.

I have read the comments posted here with amusement, as a former police officer in Johnson City during the 70's I witnessed police officers raiding gambling houses, then the same officers would go to FOP lodge and gamble the rest of the night. In these gaming nights everyone there was going armed and drinking beer and Tennessee?s finest Jack Daniels, the coke machines dispensed beer. If this still occurs maybe raids should be conducted on the lodges also. I asked an officer one night if he felt this was okay after he had participated in a raid his answer was it's different for us. So form your own opinion's.

The absolute bottom line, Mr. Hays. The "complacent social herds" will, eventually, be the pure demise of this Great Nation and the principles for which She stands.

How sad. There used to be a time when Americans felt it was their obligation as citizens to inquire not just into whether proscribed conduct was illegal, but whether the laws themselves were fundamentally compatible with a free society. No longer, apparently. Every government diktat, no matter how petty, venal, or unjust, is met with a chorus of "it's teh law!" by the complacent social herds. I would urge any juror who might be called to sit at any criminal trial resulting from this action to exercise their moral and Constitutional right of Jury Nullification to refuse to convict people for violating unjust laws. To do otherwise would be craven.

In Jan 1976 my dad was shot & gravely wounded in an attempted hold-up at his place of business. This was one of several armed robberies committed that winter and no one was ever arrested. In a follow up to the initial story the Times-News printed a photo of my dad and our home address. Soon after we started receiving phone calls from a man claiming to be my dad's shooter and threatening to come to our house and finish the job. We immediately got an unlisted phone number and started taking extra precautions around our home. Obviously this information was printed by different management at Times-News but all the comments about suspects' addresses being printed in recent news articles has brought this back to mind. At the time I complained that they had printed the info but once it's out there it can't be taken back. Unfortunately the current management doesn't seem to have any better foresight, or they just don't care about the fallout. If they did they would do a better job of checking the facts of their stories, especially when one currently running conflicts with the facts they printed in a previous article on the same incident.

Mr. Simmons:

I will attempt to clarify points where I can during these discussions; however, I will not engage in debate nor will I offer opinions.

While I agree that you have a point Mr. Fenley, discretion according to offense committed is a much more respectable process for plastering photos and addresses of the accused in any instance. Do you personally, as a writer for the Times-News, feel that those who committ non-violent and non-sexual misdemeanor offenses deserve this "precise" information published in the local newspaper before they are given the chance to defend themselves? Only two citizens were charged with a felony in this situation. You could very well make an argument that, in all fairness, you print them all to avoid any protest. Just as well, your organization could use a bit of discretion and respect for those who pay your salaries, your neighbors. It seems, though, that the "sensationalism" of a news story featuring any citizen allegedly breaking the law is too much of a temptation, and thats what sells papers, which is top priority in any instance, am I correct?

Mr Fenley, All excellent points! So why not simply leave it at "16 men were arrested in Kingsport Friday" and following their day in court release the details as a matter of public record? No confusion, no false accusations, no chance of mistaken identity and the readers still have just as good if an idea what had occurred as before.

Mr. Wayne questions the use of precise locater information about people in news stories. There is a reason for it, but it's not the reason some think. Consider this fiction as an illustration of what we do and why we do it that way. Mike Wayne is arrested for statutory rape and child abuse. The only information in the story is that Mike Wayne has been arrested and charged with the crimes. Now it just so happens that in Kingsport and the surrounding towns there's a pastor Mike Wayne and a grade school teacher Mike Wayne and maybe a guy named Michael Wayne who goes by Mike. When people read the story they focus on the suspect. Was it Pastor Mike? Can't believe our teacher is accused of that? Each one of those people can be dragged into the community reaction to the story because vague information was printed. The news value of using a suspect's name, age, address and home town is providing specific information. Mr. Wayne says he finds it "hard to justify additional ?news? value by doing this, and sees plenty of potential for abuse of a (potentially) innocent person if not a situation where a person ends up being stalked, harmed or whatever by a reader whom decides to ?take matters into their own hands.? Unfortunately the same can be said of someone who is misfortunate enough to share a last name or hometown with someone arrested or accused of a crime. I haven't heard of any recent cases of vigilantly justice around here that went beyond talk, but I do know of instances where a case of mistaken identify due to incomplete information caused someone some hardship and grief. Some people have dropped out of this forum because of the reaction their opinions evoked from neighbors and business associates. Replace opinion with vague information about a crime story if you're into trying to predict what some people may or may not do. The bottom line is which would you rather have - precise information or vague information?

The police did what they are paid to do. They got a tip, investigated and made arrests. These men are all big boys and know what they were(allegedly) doing is illegal. They took a gamble that they wouldn't be caught and lost.So now it is time to pay up.It is not the police' fault they got caught. Are there worse things going on in Kingsport? Of course. But it was reported and it was investigated which is what police do. But realistically, it is all about the money. As long as Uncle Sam can get a cut of it, then its o.k. Whether it be liquor(untaxed bootleg whiskey is horrible, but legal whiskey is taxed and therefore good... I suppose). Same thing with the lottery, it is good because the government gets a cut, where as poker playing for money is awful...Uncle Sam didn't get a cut. See how it works folks? That is just the nature of things.I am afraid I have no solution, just an observation.

What a complete waste of time. On any given evening there are dozens of poker games taking part in the Tri-Cities. Here the police busted some old guys playing poker together. Who cares? They were not hurting anyone. What about the meth labs? What about real crime?

Also our local rag triumphs again with its asinine policy of publishing photos, names and home addresses of those arrested. What a pathetic way to report the news. How is it in the public interest where these people live?

Apparently quite a few readers missed the sarcastic intent in my original post. I?m fully aware what the people named in the story was in violation of the law - I was in no way slamming the officers who were performing the duties of their job. Do I agree with the law? No I do not, and I?m active in my support of the politicians who support legalization of ?home-game? poker. Certainly if all the money seized in the raid was indeed ?in-play? during the game, it would exceed any reasonable definition of a ?home game.?

As for Ms. Lee's comment about it not being a "friendly" game - I have no idea, I was not there, however it is no secret that there are poker games at this level and much higher stakes in places all around the world - most of them are indeed "friendly."

I do however agree with Mr. Simmons comments regarding the KPD?s (management) motivation for the action and resulting publicity surrounding this case having to do more with appearances of the Department than the time and manpower warranted for ?safety and protection? of the citizenry. True, there was the potential for one of them to leave the location under the influence and hurt an innocent person, but that would hold true for ANY private gathering , such as a Christmas party in a home. Same holds true for the person accused of carrying the weapon, - in most any gathering of people, there is a percentage who will be carrying an illegal firearm.

The other point I feel compelled to address here is the Times/News consistently publishing the contact details of people prior to any convictions. Not only in this circumstance, but the recent ?Man Cave? episode in Johnson City and a fatal motorcycle wreck. I find it hard to justify any additional ?news? value by doing this, and see plenty of potential for abuse of a (potentially) innocent person if not a situation where a person ends up being stalked, harmed or whatever by a reader whom decides to ?take matters into their own hands.?

I do not intend to get into a lengthy debate of ?victimless? crimes or media ethics, but I hope that perhaps the comments here from myself and others will promote more people to think about their actions and act in a responsible manor. Also, I?d be remiss if I did not offer some kudos to the Times for providing a forum where we can express our thoughts, and hopefully be a catalyst for positive change in our daily lives.

I agree that it is just some guys sitting around and playing poker and according to the news report only one person was in possession of a gun and only one person was in possession of moonshine and only one poor elderly man was in possession of what they said was narcotics that will probly prove to be his prescription pills that he put in a pocket and left the bottle at home. So if this had been going on for awhile as they had said and no trouble occured, what is the harm? My question is, how much money did the police officers pocket from these men and not report? I have heard that some of these unfortunate men were there but were not even gambling, just visiting some buddies and had there pocket money (not substantial) taken away but not reported. So who did this raid benefit? the community or the police officers there who seized some money for their own personal use? I hope internal affairs of this police department look into just what money was actually obtained off some of these innocent men and where did it go?

Ms Lee? Where did it say ANYTHING about child abuse??? In a comment that I missed? Maybe. That being the case, if someone mentioned the word Terrorist in this thread, by your logic the money would have been being used to fund terrorism. Please, stick to the FACTS.

I cannot believe that some people think that it is okay for these men to be gambling. Sure it could be considered a friendly card game but I highly doubt that is what it was. There was nearly 20,000 dollars there and you think it was friendly. These men were there for one reason and one reason only, to make money. When you get into situations like that you can bet there is eventually going to be trouble. You talk about drugs and murder, I dare say if this had been allowed to go on that is exatly what would have happened. People have killed for less than a dollar, do you really think they would hesitate to kill for the money that was here. Someone also said something about child abuse, if you blow all of your money gambling and children aren't fed or provided for is that not child abuse? I for one think the KPD did a very great thing in breaking this up and they should be commended. It is time we quit trying to analyze crime and face up to the fact that wrong is wrong any way you look at it.

It appears to me that no matter what the police department does it wrong. Those of you who say that these people werent hurting anybody, ya, guns,alchol, and money are always good combinations.If the police didnt do anything and someone started shooting or left the place drunk and hurt one of your family members then you would be complaining that the police didnt do anything

Reading all of these comments makes me laugh. I would think the citizens of Kingsport would want our Police Department to enforce all of the laws, even the ones that we don't care about. I personally believe there is nothing wrong with with a friendly game of poker either, but I am not going to slam the Police Officers for doing their job. These officers received a complaint on gambling and they acted on it. These officers make drug arrests all of the time, and it is put in the paper too, but the one time they conduct a gambling raid, and make several arrests, the public is quick to slam them for waisting our tax dollars. The ones of you that wrote negative comments on the Police Department, I have one suggestion for you. Get you local politicians to change the laws, if you don't like them. Don't get mad at our officers for enforcing them.

Maybe the Chief thought that a "raid" of any sort would being to mend the tarnished leadership image that has emerged since he accepted the post. Especially if the Times-News would sensationalize the story, and plaster a nice photo of the "illegal"(?) contraband that was confiscated on the front page.
$19,900 was taken from these men without righteous cause, with the exception of a known outdated and very rarely enforced bit of ancient legislation.
While the simple-minded folk will bite the hook, and refer to some religious affiliation as to whay this raid is justified, its my hope that there are those who still use reason and common sense, and that they make sure these little publicity stunts don't happen again.

These comments are ridiculous. Wh!t part of illegal do you guys not understand. There was gambling, narcotics, untaxed liquor and going armed. Why would you come to a "friendly" poker game armed? Oh! And they were not hurting anybody else right! Neither are you when speeding in a car except for that one time. Mix weapons, drugs, alcohol and money then see what the result is. You guys need to be realistic! This is the job of the Police Department. If you don't like it you can move to a gambling town. I guess you guys have never had a tragic accident happen to a family member due to any of these "insignificant" offenses.

You know when I read Mr Wayne's statement I thought he was joking!I personally don't see what the problem is with gambling other then,as Mr Hoffman stated, the city isn't getting theirs which I still see no problem with.We are taxed to death as it is!
Ms Pace is 100% correct,leave these gentlemen alone and go after the drug dealers and child abusers,the REAL criminals!

Isn't it nice to see our tax dollars spent on something so petty-seems to me like maybe the Chief is just upset becauwe he wasn't included. With all the trouble city officers are getting into these days you would think he would be more focused on running his dept better and not simple things. If KPD wants big publicity and airtime why not raid Highland???

MICHAEL WAYNE--Get your head out of the sand..A few guys were gathered in a private room not dealing drugs or bothering anyone...They were playing poker silly man!!! You can follow history back to the old west days and this nation was founded on many of the principles of poker...Have you ever seen that many stations show so many poker games??/ IT's the new american craze..Paul Mckinney, A World Series of Poker Champion--Can in no way be considered a criminal..And I'm sure the men that wanted a chance to play with him are true gentlemen that ju3t wanted to play poker..Go after the pill and crack dealers that are destroying this city..But to call a few good 'ol boy poker players " SCOFFLAWS " (means law breaker ) pathetic..You sir need to get out more..Your take on this is pathetic..

I agree Debra.... What problems were they causing for anyone.

Mr. Wayne, how did these folks effect your life? How did their little card game effect ANYONE in this area? I really don't think they were playing cards in the streets of Kingsport as you are suggesting. I think the news report said they were playing poker in a room... Instead of a police raid, maybe someone should have just sent in a maid to "clean up" the situation.

I would think that if the city of Kingsport was making their cut from a poker game via taxes, n/ one would be complaining now would they!!!

What? -are we deaf, dumb and stupid here? Gambling has always gone on in Kingsport and throughout the region. It's been secured and protected by local men of "stature" and position for as long as I can remember in my 47 years of living here and existed and thrived long before I was ever born. Every now and then we read a creative, barely interesting story about a "raid" on these establishments but they're never remembered come next monday. Look -if Kingsport really wanted to stamp out gambling they would have done it years ago. These little "raids" are just tidbits to assure us that our tax dollars are being used (wasted, really) and we never rid ourselves of the "problem". If it's a real problem then give it a real effort in erradicating it. Stop playing around with the intelligence of Kingsporters who know this is a flurry of meaningless "concern". -Billie Dale Kingsport

You would think with all the crime (driving while intoxicated, drugs, assalts, burglaries, animal cruelity and murders)that the Kingsport police would have better things to do!!

Initially I was somewhat concerned when the City of Kingsport annexed this portion of Fort Henry Drive last year, however the city has redeemed itself with these arrests. Hopefully this will send a loud and clear message to the criminal element out there and let Colonial Heights return to being the peace, law-abiding safe-haven it used to be. I applaud the Chief and the vice unit for this heroic effort! I can't think of a better use for the taxpayers money than removing scofflaws like this from the streets!